Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340-351)
MS LOUISE
DE WINTER,
MR MALCOLM
CLAY AND
MS RUTH
JARRATT
3 MARCH 2009
Q340 Martin Salter: That is the nature
of love, is it not?
Mr Clay: It is the nature of love
but it reflects badly on all of us.
Chairman: Perhaps this is outside the
remit of the Home Affairs Select Committee.
Q341 David Davies: I am somebody
who is married to an eastern European, former au pair. The current
situation with in-country applications means that people have
to go back to their country to re-apply. I wonder what your impression
is on the impact that is going to have on people.
Mr Clay: I think the impact is
on my sector. If they have been issued with a certificate of sponsorship,
the new form of work permit, then quite clearly the employer accepts
that they are suitable for employment. To send them home to South
America or to China, or wherever, to apply for entry clearance
when they already hold a piece of paper to say that they are entitled
to work here just does not seem logical.
Q342 David Davies: Mr Salter has
a point, does he not? Boys meet girls, or people find other means
of employment, and this country is a magnet for people across
the whole world. There have to be rules and they have to be strictly
adhered to.
Mr Clay: Yes, but this is Tier
5, because I am limited to Tier 5, so within Tier 5, they have
not come with any right to remain.
Q343 Mr Davies: But they will remain.
Mr Clay: They should not remain.
Q344 Mr Davies: But that they do—that
is the reality—and they have done, lots of them. That is
the truth though, is it not?
Mr Clay: I would not say lots
of them; there are certain ones who have stayed and it has been
very difficult but under the new system because the entertainers
are isolated—
Mr Davies: I do not blame them; I like
them and I call them friends, but I know lots of Eastern Europeans
who before they came into the EU and had the right to came over
here, liked it and stayed and worked in ...
Q345 Chairman: Rudolf Nureyev I think
was one of them.
Mr Clay: Yes, but I am looking
at circus performers who are largely on an international circuit
and having finished one contract here have another contract to
move on to in France, Germany, Italy or where else. The incidence
of circus performers overstaying I think is very, very few and
far between.
Martin Salter: Are we seriously trying
to suggest—since we are in open session—that Britain
is groaning under a tidal wave of overstaying circus people? For
goodness sake! Are we not supposed to be treating this seriously?
Chairman: We are. Mr Salter, you are
quite right.
Martin Salter: Turnip pickers, yes.
Q346 Chairman: Mr Clay did say in
evidence that the examples are very, very small. Can I ask you
a question in conclusion about the previous regime and the way
in which you dealt with the previous regime? Obviously over the
years you will know in your various sectors who to deal with at
Sheffield and you build up a relationship with these heads of
sections. Under the present system of course there is no right
of appeal; there is an administrative review followed by another
administrative review. Do you think there ought to be a right
of appeal? Can I ask each one of you in turn, starting with you,
Ms de Winter?
Ms de Winter: Yes, definitely.
As the gentleman earlier from the university said, not to be able
to appeal against a new system would be a little bit perverse.
Also to take up your point, at the moment there are real problems
and issues with the system, primarily because we are dealing with
a number of different people—the people seem to change on
quite a frequent and regular basis, whereas before there was one
named point of contact who knew about your sector and about particular
case histories. There is not that at the moment and we would really
like to see that reintroduced so that people actually understand
how the arts sector and the cultural economy operates so that
they can actually answer some of the very difficult and individual
queries about which people are going to them.
Ms Jarratt: I would like to echo
that and also to say that certainly at the moment it is hard to
find people to talk to who agree even in the advice that they
are giving to us.
Q347 Chairman: You mentioned a particular
case and our next session with the Minister, who has just arrived
outside, is all about the way in which Members of Parliament make
representations when the system does not work. People tend to
come to MPs at the end of the process. You mentioned a particular
case where you went to the Home Secretary, presumably an emergency
case as you have described.
Ms Jarratt: Yes.
Q348 Chairman: Presumably that is
not going to be a substitute for a proper right of appeal before
an independent judge?
Ms Jarratt: Indeed not because
those, as you say, have been reserved for very, very, very rare
and exceptional circumstances; but the run of the mill, the 40
or 50 people that we are looking to bring in every year on a Tier
2 or Tier 5, that would need something more like the right of
appeal.
Q349 Chairman: Mr Clay, what about
you?
Mr Clay: I would agree entirely
with what has been said, particularly in these early stages where
we are getting decisions which we cannot understand, but which
we feel strongly are based on a lack of understanding of the new
regulations. There is no immediate appeal; probably the only way
is to make a very quick fresh appeal with the costs that are involved.
There needs to be first of all reasonable channels of contact;
secondly, a speedy appeal procedure.
Q350 Chairman: You obviously through
your industry will have known of the immigration practice in other
countries. I am not sure which country would compare to the United
Kingdom in terms of circus performers. How do you compare our
immigration system for artists, circus performers with other countries?
Mr Clay: There is in Europe, you
are probably aware, is it the Schengen system?
Q351 Chairman: Schengen.
Mr Clay: Where acts can move round
Member States far easier than they can here. I do not hear problems,
say, of people getting visas to go and work in France. The initial
system is slow for the work permits but the visa system seems
to be a lot smoother.
Chairman: Mr Clay, Ms Jarratt and Ms
de Winter, thank you very much for giving evidence to us. Our
inquiry is not concluded. If you would like to send us any evidence,
any statistics that you feel would be helpful to this Committee,
please do so. Thank you very much. That concludes the first part
of this morning's session and we will take a short adjournment
before we begin the next section.
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