Examination of Witness (Questions 380-396)
PROFESSOR DAVID
METCALF
17 MARCH 2009
Q380 Gwyn Prosser: Nautilus.
Professor Metcalf: Sorry, it is
Nautilus. It was keen that the UK workers should be trained up
as well when we took the evidence, but this is one we are going
to be reviewing by September.
Q381 David Davies: Professor Metcalf,
you have been in place for two years now. Have you any signs that
the Government has started to compensate for the lack of skilled
workers in this country by offering increased training places
to the UK workforce?
Professor Metcalf: I have been
in position for not quite 18 months. The short answer to that
is that I have not looked at it in quite the way that you imply.
Q382 David Davies: If you were short
of workers in the hovercraft industry two years ago, ships' officers,
whatever, hypothetically, within 18 months or two years you would
have expected the Government to say, "We are short of these
people and so rather than bring them in from abroad, we are going
to offer increased training so that British jobs can go to British
workers". Have you any seen any examples because if you are
not looking at that specifically, you would surely be saying to
yourselves: @We do not need quite so many in that hypothetical
occupation now, be it hovercraft drivers or whatever, because
over the last 18 months the Government has trained more them".
Have you seen that?
Professor Metcalf: You are absolutely
right. Yes. Basically, our occupation list is being used now by
the new commission and by DIUS in terms of guidance for the sector
skills councils that these are areas where they should put resources
to make sure we get some up upskilling. The answer to your specific
question about whether I have seen the results of this is: less
so here but, for example, we know that with consultants, which
are on the list presently, there are a lot of people being trained
and they will become consultants quite soon; electricity linesmen
are on the list and a lot of training is going on there.
Q383 Tom Brake: Are these specific
jobs where you have reduced the numbers of people coming in because
there has been an increase in the numbers of British people qualified
to do them?
Professor Metcalf: There were
quite a lot of occupations that we did not put on the list where
people say there is a skills shortage. The reason that we did
not put them on was that in our judgment there were plenty of
British people to do those jobs.
Q384 Tom Brake: But are there any
occupations where there was a shortage two years ago but there
is not now because the Government has trained up more British
workers for those British jobs?
Professor Metcalf: The answer
is that I cannot immediately put my finger on that. It is the
case that the Sector Skills Council for Hospitality has been liaising
with the catering industry with a view to training up more chefs.
Chairman: We will be having evidence
on that.
Q385 Tom Brake: Can you be certain
that all of the people who have come in with specific skills have
taken jobs in those areas where the skills were lacking?
Professor Metcalf: They come in
with a work permit for a specific employer. Presumably the employer
is requiring them for that job.
Q386 Tom Brake: May I suggest to
you that very few checks are carried out on employers?
Professor Metcalf: That is a matter
for the UKBA; it is not a matter for the Migration Advisory Committee.
Q387 Mr Winnick: As far as care workers
are concerned, the evidence shows that there is an acute shortage
of care assistants. Professor Metcalf, since they do not qualified
as skilled on the basis of qualifications, migrants cannot be
recruited. Is that the position?
Professor Metcalf: Not quite.
Q388 Mr Winnick: Can you explain?
Professor Metcalf: Yes. In order
to come in under Tier 2, the job has to score as skilled. There
are some occupations on the list, subsets of occupations, which
when we did our analysis did not score as skilled—chefs
and care workers are the two main ones—but we recognise
that there is a subset within that that are skilled. Care workers
is a case in point. We recognise there are some issues with care
about expansion of the sector, the high vacancy rates, turnover
rates and so on. We have put on the list senior care workers.
We took a particular way to define senior care workers, which
I can go into if you would wish. The sector did not especially
like our way. We have listened to the sector about how to define
it.
Q389 Mr Winnick: Can they come in?
Professor Metcalf: Senior care
workers are on the shortage list, yes.
Q390 Mr Winnick: But not otherwise?
Professor Metcalf: I think that
if you had the care sector here, they would be arguing essentially
for a Tier 3 scheme because what they want is workers other than
senior care workers also to be able to come in but, as you know,
Tier 3 is suspended.
Q391 Mr Winnick: As regards to chefs,
we have heard constant representation, not simply as members of
this committee but as MPs, where there are clearly Chinese and
Bangladesh communities who say that as a result of the new system
they are finding it virtually impossible to get people to come
in because of the regulations. There are enough people obviously
keen to come from those countries abroad but because of the new
restrictions it is very difficult. The restaurant owners are saying
that they cannot recruit locally. Is there any merit in the criticism
that we are hearing?
Professor Metcalf: If I may say,
the criticism is disproportionately about the lower level skills.
It is essentially like the care sector that many in the restaurant
sector would wish for a de facto Tier 3 scheme for less
skilled workers to be able to come in. The skilled components
of chefs, as it were, are on the shortage list, subject to a certain
earnings threshold and the profession is able to bring them in.
Could I say, by the way, that we have been lobbied of course as
well through representations from Bangladeshi, Indian and Chinese
restaurants and it was not only them; a representative of the
Dorchester came to talk to us, for example. It was not just the
ethnic community but others as well.
Q392 Gwyn Prosser: Professor Metcalf,
do you think that the way points are awarded for qualifications,
age and earnings is a proportionate way of assessing skills?
Professor Metcalf: Under the new
system, in Tier 1 and Tier 2 where you are getting points for
qualifications and earnings, and age also in Tier 1, it seems
to me that that is a very reasonable way of going about it. It
may be that the calibration of the points requires a little bit
of tweaking periodically because it is possible that you do not
get those right immediately. This will be one of the things that
we will be looking at in our review of both Tier 1 and of Tier
2. Of course, under Tier 2 when we do our bottom-up evidence,
we try to look at issues like innate ability, training and experience,
as well as just those points criteria.
Q393 Gwyn Prosser: Bearing that in
mind, you have looked at that and your committee has considered
it to be quite key to decision-making, why do not those attributes
count towards points?
Professor Metcalf: The short answer
is that it would be very difficult indeed to measure both the
nature of the experience that people have had on an individual
basis and innate ability; it is very much more subjective. Whereas
you have objective criteria in terms of pay, qualifications and
age.
Q394 Gwyn Prosser: In February, the
Home Secretary asked you to consider restricting Tier 2 in shortage
of occupation areas. This is not a political question. Do you
think that was a practical way to go?
Professor Metcalf: I will tell
you when we have done the work. It seems to me that that is an
absolutely legitimate question to ask and the MAC are very keen
to undertake this. Now that we have a downturn in the labour market,
and the previous work permit system had the three routes, the
shortage route is in some sense the one where we have done all
the analysis and we say this is truly where there is a shortage
of labour. The question which is implicitly being raised here
is: should people also be allowed to come in through the resident
labour market test and through the intra-company transfers? This
is the question that we will be addressing over the next three
or four months.
Q395 Gwyn Prosser: Finally, do you
have a feel for how many migrants would be affected by those changes
coming through that route?
Professor Metcalf: In principle,
that could be very substantial. I am not anticipating at all because
we have not done any of the work. If the committee were to decide,
for example, that there was less of a case for intra-company transfers,
and by definition those using them presently are people in information
technology—we have referred to Tata, for example—then
it would be very much more difficult for Tata to bring the people
in. Therefore, when we do the work, we will want to be talking
to employers like Tata, for example, to gauge the merits of continuing
with the three routes or, as is implicit in the Home Secretary's
question, possibly focusing on the one route.
Q396 Tom Brake: Could I return briefly
to the points system and the fairness of it? You said it was fair.
What is fair about a system that includes points based on people's
earnings when people from developing countries are not possibly
going to be able to earn the same number of points as someone
from an industrialised country?
Professor Metcalf: This is not
a matter for the MAC. My understanding of this is that there is
a multiplier there; they are multiplied up according to the GDP
of the country.
Chairman: Professor Metcalf, thank you
very much for giving evidence. I am sure we will be in touch with
you for further information. If you would like to help this committee
in any way with any information about our inquiry, please do not
hesitate to write to us. If we have missed anything out or you
want to add to your evidence, please do so.
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