Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
300-319)
MARIA EAGLE
MP, PHIL WHEATLEY
CB AND STACEY
TASKER OBE
9 JUNE 2009
Q300 Alun Michael: I would like to
know more about the measures.
Stacey Tasker: We have changed
our approach to training so now it is up to the governors or heads
of policy group to decide on their business needs from their business
objectives what training it is they want. It has become much more
demand-led rather than supply-led, so they demand training off
us. We have got a new training planning tool. Before we used to
schedule all our training on an historical basis, for instance,
that was how many adjudication courses we had last year or incident
command courses, but now we are rolling out a new training operating
model where they tell us exactly what are the courses they want.
In the old days we had three residential colleges. Training was
about putting people on a bus, sending them away to a college
and then coming back trained. Now we have got only one Prison
Service College which can handle 250 people but there are 13 different
local learning centres, 13 different POELT centres, so people
can actually go on training courses in a much more modularised
fashion and not have to stay away from home. So for primary carers,
who are normally women, for example, that has been very beneficial.
We are looking at different ways of delivering training, so e-learning,
for examplewe have just had a really good e-learning pilot
which has been five courses in 10 prisons, including the all important
key talk. There are over 200 courses in our portfolio of training
which the governors, having done a training needs analysis and
decided where the skills gap are in their staff, demand off us
centrally and it is our job to deliver. It was an average of seven
days per member of staff, £37.8 million spent on it, and
350,000 days training delivered in 2008-09 for what the field's
requirements were. Like Phil says, there is still mandatory training
but it is what is business critical to them and having the portfolio
of courses available from which to choose. Every week we have
a new demand. We have just got a new extremism package developed,
another one on managing indeterminate sentences, mental health
awareness etc, so all the time we are increasing our portfolio,
looking at how we can change it and coping with the demand that
they present to us.
Q301 Mr Turner: Why is the Ministry
of Justice still pursuing the building of enormous new prisons
when its own research, as well as the HMIP indicators, shows that
smaller units reduce re-offending?
Maria Eagle: The primary reason
why we are building new prisons and more places is to be able
to do the job that we are here to do, which is to accommodate
those sent into custody by the courts, which is item number one
on the list of things the Ministry of Justice has to do. Obviously
it is not easy or quick to procure a new prison, whatever size
it may be. Our planning is done on the basis of various projections
and item number one on our list is to make sure we can accommodate
those sent into custody by the courts. The answer to your question
primarily is the trends that we expect to see in terms of people
sent into custody mean that we need more places than we currently
have. We have plans for 96,000 places by the end of 2014. The
Committee will be well aware, because it press-released its response
to the statement at the end of the consultation we had on what
became known as the Titan prison building plan welcoming the fact
that we had listened to what we were told and changed our plans,
that we are now planning on building a greater numberfiveof
smaller prisons, not the three containing 2,500 places that were
planned.
Q302 Chairman: But 1,500 places though.
Maria Eagle: But 1,500 places,
which we think is a better balance, having done extra work and
having consulted widely, in terms of balancing value for money,
the economies of scale that one can have from size but also being
effective at reducing re-offending and doing the job properly.
We are still planning for the 96,000 places by the end of 2014
because we think that is what is required on the basis of projections
we have, but we are now not planning on building such large prisons
as we were.
Q303 Mr Turner: So 1,500 is twice
as much as most in my constituency anyway, the three prisons until
they were wrapped up together and made one, which I suppose makes
them 2,000. What is it that tells you this is the right size,
1,500, 800 or 2,000?
Maria Eagle: It is a combination
of experience, because not only with clustering, and you have
an awareness of that from your own constituency, but also our
operational experience we do have a number of prisons, about seven
or eight, which are lined up. We have got Wandsworth, which is
1,600-plus and we have seven others which are between 1,200 and
1,500, so we do have some experience of dealing with prisons of
this kind of size. Obviously we did not have experience of dealing
with prisons of 2,500. We are clearer that we are capable of handling
that but we also think it is better. We do not want to warehouse
offenders. There was a concern expressed that the very large prisons
were just about locking people up and warehousing them and that
was a concern that was widely expressed. That was never our intention.
It was not our intention to do that because it is tremendously
important that we continue our work to reduce re-offending. Part
of what we want to do with people in prison for their time in
custody is try and make sure they do not come back. Therefore,
we have to have a balance that will enable us to get the economies
of the scale and the efficiencies that can come from greater size
balanced against the work that can be done to reduce re-offending.
The conclusion that we have come to at the end of the consultation
having done further work and also drawing on our own operational
experience, which Phil will be better to talk to you about than
I would be, is we think that size is more appropriate to get a
better balance between efficiency gains from back office savings
whilst having unitswe are looking at at least two units
in each of these larger new prisonswhich mean there is
a smaller number of people within who can be helped in the appropriate
ways in terms of reducing re-offending. We just think it is a
better balance than the original plan.
Q304 Mr Turner: Our evidence tells
us that the ratio of officers to prisoners is significant in prison
officers' capacity to spend time, and form relationships, with
prisoners with benefits for both pro-social modelling and rehabilitationI
understand the latter wordand incident avoidance and control.
How can reducing this ratio by building prisoner warehouses, as
it were, be a prudent and effect way to use public money?
Phil Wheatley: I think the case
for large prisons is made by the efficiencies you get which allow
you to have more staff in contact with prisoners. A small prison
typically will have its own security office, its own gate, all
of its own support services, most of which do not have staff who
have any contact with prisoners at all. A larger prison will allow
you economies of scale on most of things, you have still got a
single gate in a prison with 1,500 prisoners in, so you are able
to deploy more resources out on to the wings dealing with prisoners
and you save yourself a lot of back office work by having a larger
establishment. Genuinely, I think it enables us to use resources
in a way that is more likely to reduce re-offending and allows
us to use public money carefully, which we are trying to do. If
you said to me, "You can run lots of bijou establishments
of 120 prisoners each or even 400", I could do that for you
but it would cost a lot of public money.
Q305 Mr Heath: That was what Baroness
Corston advised, was it not?
Phil Wheatley: For a small group
of women one can see why that makes sense, given their very great
needs, so I understand the thinking behind it but, nevertheless,
it costs money and you as Parliament and the Government of the
day are always interested in making sure that money is used to
maximum effect. The 1,500 gives us genuine efficiencies. We have
been running large establishments now for a number of years: Liverpool,
Wandsworth, Wormwood Scrubs, Manchester, all very big places up
or near the 1,500 mark. Because we have expanded existing establishments
we have got lots of establishments that are now over 1,000 and
we are still managing to perform well, we have become more confident
about managing big establishments. Again, if you had asked me
10-15 years ago I would have been less sure that we could do it
but I am now confident we can manage big establishments, we have
the skills to do it. You have got to create as you build establishments
that are not thought of as a giant factory but as a succession
of small units within a perimeter with regimes that match the
populations in those units.
Q306 Mr Turner: So we can expect
perhaps on the Isle of Wight the three prisons coming together
as one without one single wall around it?
Phil Wheatley: No. The advantage
we get on the Isle of Wight by clustering the prisons, which is
a separate issue, is that we save ourselves some management and
admin overheads and you can have a bigger specialist input, so
if you are doing offending behaviour programmes you can have an
offending behaviour programme that covers the three establishments
and gives you greater expertise and makes better use of your specialist
staff. To me, although it may be uncomfortable for the staff who
have been used to being in a separate establishment, and Parkhurst
Prison always thought it was the senior prison on the island because
it had the longest past and it had Category A prisoners and an
SSU, a special secure unit, they probably do not like the fact
they are no longer seen like that but as a way of using public
money it is much better.
Q307 Mr Tyrie: You have been briefed
that the capacity of Wandsworth Prison, Minister, is 1,600-plus,
I think you said a moment ago. Is that the normal operating level
or the operational capacity level? Perhaps one of your colleagues
might answer.
Phil Wheatley: It is its operational
capacity, and Wandsworth runs very near to its operational capacity.
We have been running in the estate as a whole at about 98% of
operational capacity, and Wandsworth is no different from anywhere
else. So operational capacity is now what I am expected to work
prisons at or very near to.
Q308 Mr Tyrie: What confidence can
you give us that the new prisons you are going to build are not
going very quickly to rise in capacity to what is known as the
"safe level of overcrowding", which is the extra 15%?
Maria Eagle: One of the reasons
for building the five larger size prisons that gets us up to 96,000
by 2014 is to try and get ourselves ahead of the curve of the
increase in population. Obviously some of that increase in capacity
is about taking out old-fashioned, inefficient and not very nice
capacity that currently we have to use because the system is not
quite as full as it was last year, but it is still pretty full.
I think one of the benefits of getting these prisons built is
that it takes us ahead of the curve enough to start removing some
of that capacity, and that is part of the plan. So the plan is
not to then start overcrowding the new capacity that we have.
Of course, trend predictions of prison population is not an exact
science. As the Committee will be well aware, we tend to have
a range of planning assumptions from high to low and then we see
what transpires in terms of how many people actually get sent
to prison by the courts. So certainly at present we are not planning
to overcrowd the new capacity. The idea of building the five new
prisons at the sort of size that the Committee is expressing a
bit of concern about is to get us ahead of the game, to hopefully
prevent us from having to overcrowd.
Q309 Mr Tyrie: I would like to ask
Mr Wheatley about the value for money in the decision to abandon
Titan prisons. When you last came before us to give evidence on
Titan prisons you told us that a key driver for the cost, and
you have indicated it again today, is the cost of the perimeter
wall. What leads you to suppose that you are not going to get
extra costs pro rata if you have a larger number of somewhat smaller
prisons?
Phil Wheatley: It is not the cost
of the wall; it is the cost of the gate and some of the staffing
that goes with supervising the grounds. You have got to have a
gate in a prison and the gate has to be staffed, so if you are
staffing it for 400 people, you are staffing it for a smaller
amount of work.
Q310 Chairman: It does not alter
Mr Tyrie's question though.
Phil Wheatley: Bear with me. I
am just explaining, it is not the wall where there is a saving;
it is the costs that go with the wall where there is a saving.
Q311 Mr Heath: The Secretary of State
mentioned walls quite a lot in his evidence.
Phil Wheatley: Yes. It is primarily
the cost of the security that goes with the wall that we save,
or at least we get the maximum by having a wall round a big establishment.
Obviously, if we have slightly smaller establishments the economies
of scale are slightly smaller, and that is the trade-off between
the Government's view having consulted, that is the Secretary
of State's view having consulted
Q312 Chairman: Three hundred against
2,500 is not slightly!
Phil Wheatley: Well, 1,000 less.
Proportionately it is a reduction, and the smaller the prison,
the less the economies of scale. On the other hand, 1,500 is quite
a big prison. It gives some economies of scale as opposed to a
prison of 400. Those are political judgments, not my judgments.
My job is to run what I am given and make it work effectively.
Q313 Mr Tyrie: I think that is a
very fair and honest answer. You have told us that there are economies
of scale from larger prisons and that because we are building
somewhat smaller prisons than had been intended, some of those
economies of scale will be lost.
Phil Wheatley: Yes, and if we
build a Rikers Island prison of 5,000, there would be even more
economies of scale.
Q314 Mr Tyrie: Would you be prepared
to provide us a note with the amount that is lost as a consequence?
Phil Wheatley: I am sure it is
for the Secretary of State to decide what to provide the Committee
on this, but I am sure we can provide something.
Maria Eagle: Yes, we will try
and provide you with some illustrative examples of the planning
assumptions, but obviously it is not all fixed and, again, there
is a range of possibilities. There is always a range of possibilities.
Q315 Mr Tyrie: We have got two very
clear sets of numbers, Minister. We have got the plan for Titan
prisons before us and we have got another plan now, which is to
have these prisons of 1,500, so let us compare those two.
Phil Wheatley: Obviously, there
is a difference between the two. I should say one thing that I
do know for certain, as we have done the business case, is there
is a clear business case for building new and closing old, because
that is part of this equation. This was not just a build for capacity.
Mr Tyrie: That is not changing. I do
not want to muddy the waters with all sorts of other demands on
you. I just want to find out what the extra cost to the Exchequer
of this decision is.
Q316 Mr Heath: Workforce Modernisation
did not go down extremely well with the staff at any level. It
is just a way of saving money, is it not?
Phil Wheatley: It is a way of
using the public money to better advantage. The proposals were
to reduce the overall level of management, to put together layers
and, as we de-layered, have less spend on management that should
nearly match the sort of structures that the private sector have,
which tend to have less managers and give, I think, as the Alison
Liebling evidence indicated, a rather clearer link between managers
and staff. It also involved splitting the prison officer grade
into two, because within the current prison officer grade there
is a giant tranche of work from the relatively easier prison officer
terms through to the highly skilled. For me it makes sense, and
I am conscious of equal pay risks, which are part of my job to
make sure that I manage, to have that big range of work split
into too narrow a range of work because it ranges from sex offender
treatment down to straightforward landing work and in any job
evaluation system they evaluate quite differently.
Q317 Mr Heath: There was a legitimate
concern, was there not, that you were setting aside governor grades
and senior management grades, cutting at both ends. In other words,
you were reducing initial training, putting those people then
into prisons, whilst at the same time losing the principal officer
grade and a lot of the potential mentoring and support that would
otherwise be available to those junior officers?
Phil Wheatley: We were not cutting
the training at all. That was simply not true. Training remains
exactly the same under the proposal. We will train new prison
officers in the same way. The only minor change was to lose the
week in the middle of the course to the end of the course, but
we think it made better sense to make it a solid induction for
new staff.
Stacey Tasker: We are also introducing
training for operational support grades that we have never had
before, a two-week course, which will give the underpinning knowledge
for a Level 2 custodial care NVQ. There is no question that we
are reducing the prison officer initial training course.
Phil Wheatley: So we improve training
for the non-officer operational grades and have kept the training
for officers steady.
Q318 Mr Heath: Have you seen the
package for the level of training? We are talking about the level
of training that is currently the case rather than what it was
a few years ago because there has been a reduction, has there
not?
Stacey Tasker: I arrived in 2004
and it was increased then by a week. You were saying in your day,
Phil, it was
Phil Wheatley: I remember when
I first joined the service, for what it is worth, we spent four
weeks in an establishment before doing eight weeks training, with
one brief gap in the middle, or seven weeks training with a week's
gap in the middle, as I remember it. I am relying on my memory.
The four weeks' training at the beginning of my service, I can
tell you, was largely wasted. I remember that well as not being
a very helpful period. In practice, prison officer training has
remained largely the same. We have changed the course, made the
course more focused, made sure we have used every space we have
got to great advantage and we have not expanded it, and we were
not proposing to make any changes as a result of Workforce Modernisation
but we were going to cut management layers and reduce the number
of layers. I think the advantage to the public purse in that,
in terms of making us more efficient, should mean that any Member
of Parliament thinks that is a good thing to do.
Q319 Mr Heath: What are you going
do now?
Phil Wheatley: We are consulting
on introducing the new two-tier prison officer grade, and that
will be for new entrants, it will not change conditions of service
for people who have not volunteered to change their conditions
of service. I expect, as a result of that consultation, to move
to selection to the new tier of prison officer. So we are doing
that, though we cannot change existing staff.
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