Examination of Witnesses (Questions 202-219)
SIR JOHN
ELVIDGE KCB
26 FEBRUARY 2008
Q202 Chairman: Sir John, welcome. We
are delighted to have you with us to give us the benefit of your
experience. I cannot remember whether you were here at the beginning
when I explained the scope of what we are trying to do.
Sir John Elvidge: I was indeed.
Chairman: Since you heard that, I can
invite Ms Morgan to start.
Q203 Julie Morgan: Good morning.
Could you tell us how the Scottish Civil Service has changed since
devolution started in 1999?
Sir John Elvidge: I will do my
best. Perhaps one starting point is to say that in a very literal
sense the Civil Service has changed substantially in that around
40% of the people who work for us now did not work for us before
devolution, so as a body of people a substantial number of them
have not carried over from a pre-devolution existence to a post-devolution
existence. Along with that has come an effort to bring a wider
variety of skills and backgrounds into the Civil Service. We were
the first part of the Civil Service, for example, to recruit generically
into the Senior Civil Service from outside the Civil Service.
We take people in cohorts rather than taking them to individual
posts. That has enabled us to accelerate the diversification of
skills and backgrounds. Like other parts of the Civil Service
we have become more diverse in other ways, particularly at senior
levels.
Q204 Julie Morgan: Just going back
to the previous point, do you have many secondments?
Sir John Elvidge: We have a large
number of secondments. I think I am right in saying that we are
currently at the highest level of inward secondments that we have
ever had. Inward secondments have proved a great deal easier than
outward secondments. That is directly related to a core part of
our working principles, which is the importance of working closely
with our external partners at all stages of the government process,
so not simply consulting around the delivery phase of government
policy but working closely with our external partners at the policy
formation phase. If that is the approach you seek to achieve then
bringing people from outside into the organisation on secondment
helps get that wider expertise embedded right at the beginning
of the policy-making process.
Q205 Julie Morgan: Who would be the
main partners?
Sir John Elvidge: Local authorities
are a substantial partner. We have a lot of NHS secondees inside
the organisation. The Third Sector also provides a reasonable
number of secondees. The private sector probably makes up the
smallest proportion of our inward secondees.
Q206 Julie Morgan: This has moved
ahead very quickly since devolution, has it?
Sir John Elvidge: Yes. I would
say there has been a step change in our use of secondments since
devolution.
Q207 Julie Morgan: Has that been
a deliberate policy?
Sir John Elvidge: Yes, for the
reasons I outlined, because we believe it is important to bring
that experience inside the organisation rather than simply engaging
with that expertise still embedded in its various organisations.
It is not an either/or, of course, but it is an attempt to deepen
our understanding of the stakeholder perspective.
Q208 Julie Morgan: This has happened
in England and Wales as well but you think it has happened more
rapidly in Scotland, is that what you are saying?
Sir John Elvidge: I would not
like to make a comparative observation about that. It has happened
rapidly in Scotland compared to our own past practice. The approach
in Wales, of course, is slightly different with bringing substantial
parts of the public sector into the structure of government. The
sheer numbers of people transferring their expertise into the
heart of government in Wales must be greater than the sheer numbers
here. I do not have an overview of what happens in Whitehall that
would enable me to make that comparison.
Q209 Julie Morgan: Are there any
other ways in which the Civil Service has changed since 1999?
Sir John Elvidge: We have changed
structurally, although I never think that structural change is
the most important part of changes. We went through one phase
of moulding our structure more closely around the portfolios of
individual Cabinet ministers. That phase one would probably be
placed in time from 2001 through to 2007. We have recently been
through another phase of change where we have made structural
changes to emphasise the need for people to work together across
the organisation. We have moved away from having a structure of
departments that mirrors the way in which Whitehall is organised
to moving our more self-contained units of business one level
down to our 42 directorates and redefining the roles of those
whose role was previously as a head of department so that their
individual roles run right across the organisation and they are
each responsible for driving one of the strategic themes of the
new government.
Q210 Julie Morgan: That is a change
that has been brought in by the SNP Government?
Sir John Elvidge: It is a change
which evolved naturally from our thinking about the organisation
and which aligned very well with the SNP's own thinking about
the way in which they wanted to conduct their government. We had
a very early discussion about whether they would support a radical
change in the organisation of that nature and they were happy
to do that.
Q211 Julie Morgan: This was something
you had been thinking of within the Civil Service before the new
government came in?
Sir John Elvidge: Yes, indeed.
We had an external peer review, like the Capability Reviews in
Whitehall, in the autumn of 2006 which had strengthened the case
for moving in that direction. The way I normally express this
when I am talking to people inside and outside the organisation
is that in the previous four years, 2003-07, the coalition government
had made 460-odd specific commitments to the people of Scotland
and in our audit in January 2007 of performance against those
we were able to demonstrate that we had delivered approximately
97% of those 460-odd commitments. That told me that we were hitting
diminishing returns from doing the things that fitted neatly into
a departmental structure. We had demonstrated that if you set
the organisation tasks of that kind the organisation would deliver
them. Nevertheless, there was a view, I think both internally
and externally, that there were more complex issues facing Scotland
that perhaps we were not being as successful at dealing with and
I and a number of others thought that we would need a different
way of operating as an organisation if, without sacrificing that
ability to do things that fit into the boxes, we were to become
equally good at doing the complex things. That seemed to me to
require a fairly radical upheaval to the way the organisation
thought about itself.
Julie Morgan: I am sure that will be
picked up later.
Q212 Alun Michael: One of the things
you have said is key to that is the development of the Strategic
Board. How does that change things in terms of reflecting government's
strategic objectives? You referred to the organisation, but what
is the Board's role in that? Is it likely to be any more effective
and accountable than boards in Whitehall departments, which you
will gather from the question I am not terribly impressed with?
Sir John Elvidge: I certainly
hope so would be the answer. The Board's role is very explicit,
that is to focus on the totality of the organisation, not on the
bits of the organisation. My explicit expectation of members of
the Strategic Board is that they are there to think about the
whole performance of the organisation, not to represent bits of
the organisation. That was an important part of the journey that
we were travelling on and I can talk for quite a long time about
the way in which the top structure of this organisation has evolved
from its pre-devolution period through various steps until we
reached this stage that suggested that we needed to be smaller,
because I think the number of people around the table is a factor.
Q213 Alun Michael: The number is?
Sir John Elvidge: The number of
members of the Strategic Board at the moment is six executive
members, me and five directors-general, and I have two non-executives
at the moment although I would normally have three.
Q214 Alun Michael: So the non-execs
are meant to bring some outside expertise into the Board. What
is the relationship between the Board, including its non-exec
members, and ministers?
Sir John Elvidge: The role of
the Board is to support ministers collectively, to support Cabinet,
and to focus on that rather than a one-to-one relationship between
members of the Board and individual ministers. That is a very
significant transition from our past history and I would not claim
that you would find a perfect transition there, but we have a
Cabinet who place very considerable emphasis themselves, as I
am sure ministers will tell you later, on collective working at
Cabinet level, therefore it must be right that the organisation
seeks to support that collective working through the responsibilities
of the Board.
Q215 Alun Michael: How do you ensure
that improves the ability of ministers to deliver rather than,
if I can be cheeky, increasing the power of the Permanent Secretary?
Sir John Elvidge: Personally,
I think the power of permanent secretaries is often overrated.
That has to be a proof of the pudding question, does it not. If
you look at the budget document that is the product of the Strategic
Spending Review, if you look at the Government's economic strategy
explaining how its single core purpose will be articulated through
the organisation, and if you look at the radical new relationship
with local government and the way in which that has been articulated
you would see the fruits of the way in which the Board is concentrating
on these collective products that support collective government.
Q216 Alun Michael: You referred a
moments ago in response to my colleague about secondment in and
out of the Civil Service in Scotland and I got the impression
that was largely secondments in and out with other organisations
in Scotland, is that the case?
Sir John Elvidge: Mostly, yes.
Let me just think if there are examples that do not fit that pattern.
Off the top of my head I cannot think of secondments either with
the UK Government or the other two devolved administrations. I
think there is a bit of a practical reason for that. It is quite
domestically disruptive, obviously, to shift workplace across
those distances. Particularly with Wales and Northern Ireland
we concentrate on other mechanisms for sharing learning.
Q217 Alun Michael: That interdepartmental
activity, as we have seen across Whitehall departments, can be
very, very fruitful in getting people to think differently or
more imaginatively, to look at different ways of working.
Sir John Elvidge: Yes.
Q218 Alun Michael: Is there a need
to promote that in the interests of developing civil servants?
Sir John Elvidge: Yes. I did not
mean to imply that there was not cross-fertilisation. A substantial
number of those people who did not work for us before devolution
have come to us from the Civil Service in Whitehall.
Q219 Alun Michael: So traffic is
important and continues then?
Sir John Elvidge: Yes. There is
more of a northward flow than there is a southward flow, I think
it would be fair to say. For example, a senior member of the Crown
Office team has recently moved to Wales to be the most senior
official of the Crown Prosecution Service in Wales. We are seeing,
and perhaps beginning to see more of, that cross-fertilisation
but it is more in the nature of, if not permanent moves, quite
long-term moves for people than secondments which typically are
of shorter duration.
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