Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240-260)
BRUCE CRAWFORD
MSP
26 FEBRUARY 2008
Q240 Julie Morgan: You would see
that as replacing and developing the position played by the Secretary
of State for Scotland?
Bruce Crawford: As I said earlier
on, the Office of the Secretary of State for Scotland, indeed
the Scotland Office, we are now almost 10 years on and if we can
strengthen the bilateral arrangements we will have a much better
co-ordinated and strengthened role at the centre and the need
for the Scotland Office is fast disappearing over the horizon.
Q241 Julie Morgan: At the moment
do the ministers in your Government have much contact with the
Secretary of State for Scotland?
Bruce Crawford: The First Minister
has the odd contact with the Secretary of State for Scotland.
Q242 Julie Morgan: Sorry, what did
you say?
Bruce Crawford: The First Minister
does have contact with the Secretary of State for Scotland.
Q243 Julie Morgan: Is that on a regular
basis?
Bruce Crawford: The most recent
thing they discussed, and I will talk about when I get the chance
as well, if you do not mind, was the Gould Report into the Scottish
Parliament elections. We have been arguing, indeed the Scottish
Parliament has argued, that executive and legislative competence
over the handling of the elections, and it is the unanimous position
of the Scottish Parliament, should come to the Scottish Parliament
and the Scottish Government to deal with. Why have we been arguing
for that? Because right now there are about 18 different pieces
of legislation affecting Scottish electoral law and there is a
plethora of steering groups and other material below that. The
Scotland Office is responsible for the Scottish Parliament elections
currently, the Scottish Government is responsible for local government
elections and, rightly, Ron Gould said there is an incredibly
fragmented position and it needs to be resolved and recommended
the Scottish Parliament should have responsibility for that. I
know that the First Minister and Secretary of State for Scotland
discussed that issue. That has not really been taken forward.
This is part of my own bag as a Minister, so I have got an interest
in it. I think it should have been in terms of the response from
the UK Government and it just seems to me so much commonsense,
pragmatic positioning. Forgetting all the politics around this,
and I know you cannot do that because we are politicians, just
to try to resolve that fragmented picture and make sure that the
ridiculous situation that arose in Scotland in terms of the management
and delivery of the election does not happen again, we need to
get on with that work and get it done.
Q244 Julie Morgan: So you are saying
there is deadlock over this issue, or there is no progress?
Bruce Crawford: The report that
came out from the UK Government and its reference to this issue
was the central core of a lot of the argument put forward by Ron
Gould and it was paid scant attention to and was poorly addressed.
I raise that particular point because if the Scotland Office is
no longer doing that, and I am saying to you I think there is
a strengthened way we can do it in terms of the relationship between
the UK and the Scottish Government, that is another reason why
the Scotland Office is no longer required. Whether that is part
of their argument for not progressing it you would need to ask
them, but you might suspect that if you were in my seat.
Q245 Julie Morgan: You said you have
a very good working relationship with David Cairns. How often
does the First Minister meet the Secretary of State for Scotland?
How many times have they met since you formed a government?
Bruce Crawford: I am aware of
at least a couple of occasions but I would need to make sure of
my facts on that.
Q246 Julie Morgan: Fairly rarely
they meet?
Bruce Crawford: It is not a regular
occurrence, but I will make sure you get that information as a
follow-up.
Julie Morgan: Thank you.
Q247 Chairman: On that particular
issue, is there anything to stop you simply having a discussion
with the Justice Minister about it? It is your ministerial responsibility
and he has a ministerial responsibility for elections. Can you
bypass the Secretary of State for Scotland or is there something
that stops you from doing so?
Bruce Crawford: I am glad you
raise that point because it makes my point for me in terms of
how arcane the process is. The Justice Minister is responsible
for elections at the UK level and the European Parliament, the
Scotland Office is responsible for elections to the Scottish Parliament
and the Scottish Government is responsible for elections to local
government. You can see we have a pretty patchwork approach here
and it is pretty clouded in terms of who is doing what. It needs
a lot more clarity, certainly in Scotland in terms of the elections
to the Scottish Parliament and elections to local government,
so that there is one body responsible for this able to deliver
an effective election on the night.
Q248 Chairman: Are you saying that
the UK Justice Minister would say, "Sorry, I can't talk to
you about this, this is the Secretary of State for Scotland's
job"?
Bruce Crawford: Correct.
Q249 Chairman: Even though, of course,
for some purposes the Scotland Office is part of the Ministry
of Justice.
Bruce Crawford: I will let them
justify that area. It looks like a bit of a morass to me.
Q250 Mr Turner: For the most part,
ie England, there is one person responsible, so what are you complaining
about?
Bruce Crawford: Sorry?
Q251 Mr Turner: There is one minister
responsible in England for the whole lot.
Bruce Crawford: I am complaining
that in Scotland there is no one person responsible. There are
different bodies of government responsible.
Q252 Mr Turner: How can it be lower
down the line because obviously something has to be at the top
for the UK, does it not?
Bruce Crawford: The Scottish Parliament
elections recently, the Scottish Parliament itself?
Q253 Mr Turner: Yes, but I mean in
UK elections.
Bruce Crawford: Understandably
that will have to be done by the Justice Department. I am talking
specifically about the Scottish Parliament elections, I am sorry
if I was not clear.
Q254 Mr Turner: Yes. Okay, I understand
that. Your submission argued that the "residual functions"
of the Scotland Office should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament.
Is that all of these functions?
Bruce Crawford: In terms of the
functions of the Scotland Office there is not a lot left there.
Certainly removing the functions of Scottish Parliament, the Elections
Executive and legislative competence over them from the Scotland
Office and transferring them to the Scottish Government would
mean there is not a lot left for the Scotland Office to do. That
is what I am arguing. I am not going to put their argument for
them, I will let them do that themselves.
Q255 Mr Turner: What is your view
on changes to allow devolution to take place in England?
Bruce Crawford: There is an interesting
debate that is going on in terms of that whole area, is there
not, in terms of some of the tensions that are around as reported
in the media, but how real they are I sometimes wonder. As far
as the process for England is concerned, it is not up to me and
the Scottish Government to provide a view about how the people
in England decide that they want to have themselves governed,
I think that needs to come from the processes that are available
through politics and discussion and through Westminster itself
about how to deal with the question of how England is governed
in the future. I think it would be a bit cheeky of me, actually,
to say how I think that could be done.
Q256 Mrs James: I want to go to intergovernmental
relations now. Professor Michael Keating, and I have got quite
a long quote here so I apologise for that, said: "devolution
is about allowing policy divergence and a healthy competition
among governments to innovate and respond to challenges".
How accurately do you think this describes the culture of intergovernmental
relations between Scottish and UK Governments?
Bruce Crawford: I think that is
a reasonable reflection of where we are. The whole idea of devolution
was to allow that divergence, and it might be that the people
in Berwick are now demanding that they become part of Scotland
because they see such a wonderful government in Scotland providing
such goods for them.
Q257 Chairman: I do not think we
will go down that route, at least not on the basis of a dodgy
poll!
Bruce Crawford: As I said to you
earlier, I am sure you would make a fantastic member of the Scottish
Parliament, Chairman. Sorry, with that divergence in my head could
you repeat the last bit of your question?
Q258 Mrs James: How accurately do
you think it reflects what is happening?
Bruce Crawford: I think it is
reflecting reasonably well what is happening. I do have some concerns,
I have to say, in terms of some of the more recent soundings coming
out, and, again, this is through the media and I cannot say how
accurate it is, but no doubt there is some basis for where it
starts. This week in the Scottish media we have had comment upon
the issue of whether Scotland should have control over planning
issues concerning nuclear power stations, for instance, and is
it still germane in terms of the Scotland Act that it should be
the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government that have
that say. Obviously I would say yes, I think it is. If the argument
is beginning to move to a direction that says, "In areas
where we have got a disagreement with the current Scottish Government
then we need to look at where the powers lie", then I have
got concerns about the future. I watched a discussion which Gordon
Brown had on one of the Scottish political shows a couple of weeks
ago when he mentioned animal health being one of the areas where
there might be a consideration where that might become an area
that could be looked at in terms of a two-way street of powers.
It just so happens that this is one of the areas where we did
have a bit of a falling out with the UK Government. It would be
a pity if every time there was a divergence that ended up as perhaps
you should take these ideas back. Whilst I accept the general
premise of the gentleman you quote, I think there are danger signs
out there, if you understand where I am coming from.
Q259 Mrs James: We have already heard
about Professor Jeffrey's statement that the current framework
for intergovernmental relations are not "fit for purpose".
How would you respond to that?
Bruce Crawford: I think the structures
can be improved. It has been said that we could strengthen the
role, we could share much more bilateral discussion between ministers
in Scotland and ministers at the UK level, that could be strengthened,
and a stronger co-ordinated role at the centre of Government,
whether that is through the Leader of the House for my purpose
or otherwise. Obviously being a member of the Scottish National
Party in a Scottish Government, we are of the view that independence
is a way to sort a lot of these issues out and probably would
sort a lot of them out and we would have a much healthier relationship
in the future.
Q260 Chairman: Mr Crawford, thank
you very much indeed. It has been most helpful evidence and we
are very glad that you have spent the time with us today.
Bruce Crawford: A pleasure, thank
you.
Chairman: Thank you.
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