JL | Thank you very much for agreeing to this meeting. I am aware of the stress you have been under and I do not wish to add to it. This is [an official from my office] who is here to take a note of our discussion. It will not be verbatim. She will show you her note after the meeting so you can confirm its factual accuracy. If I prepare a report on this inquiry, the note will form part of the published evidence and will be published, although I would not release your address.
First I should like to assure you that this inquiry is in relation to Mrs Spelman's use of her parliamentary allowances, and you are a witness only. You are here to help me with the inquiry.
I wrote to you on 21 October with the main areas I would like to cover. I appreciate this is all now some time ago so I do understand that your recollection may be uncertain. If you can't remember, please say so.
Are you happy to proceed on this basis?
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TH | Yes.
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| Your initial period
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JL | Tell me how you came to be employed by Mrs Spelman in 1997. Mrs Spelman says that she asked around the area and she interviewed you before the May election. Is that your recollection?
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TH | From what I can remember I went to her residence for an interview for the duties of a nanny. While I was at the interview Mrs Spelman said she had recently been elected MP but she had no secretary or office. She asked whether, for the initial few months, I would be prepared, aside of nanny duties, to answer phone calls, open the post, deal with faxes and post coming in.
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JL | Mrs Spelman recalls this happening before the election. She says she had a discussion with you and then waited to see if she was elected before offering you the job.
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TH | It is such a long time ago, I can't remember. But there was a first interview and then I would have been called back. The interview was in the midlands area, not in Kent.
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JL | When you first went to the interview, did you go for an interview as a nanny?
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TH | At the time I was going as a nanny, but she mentioned the likelihood of extra duties. The two eldest children were at school and the youngest was at nursery during the day. During those hours I could do constituency work until she got a full time secretary.
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JL | Was this the first you heard of the dual role?
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TH | Yes.
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JL | How did she find you?
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TH | It was through a friend of someone I knew through previous nannying. I can't remember her name, but she heard that someone wanted a nanny and knew that I was looking for a job and paired the two of us together.
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JL | Was the job offer dependent on you agreeing to do both jobs?
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TH | I think it probably was. I got a room and board for the nanny job.
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JL | What were your qualifications and experience as a nanny?
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TH | I have an NNEB qualification, for which I did two years' training at college. I qualified in 1991. By 1997 I had six years' experience, and had done about three jobs from what I remember.
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JL | What were your qualifications for the secretarial type work?
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TH | I had a RSA computer literacy qualification from 1990 and a Pitman typing certificate from 1988.
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JL | Mrs Spelman said that you didn't type.
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TH | I could, but I wasn't asked to.
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JL | What experience had you had of office or administrative work?
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TH | It was often part and parcel of my nanny jobs to do administration; to open the post, fax documents and take phone calls. I would use my common sense. But I have never done clerical work in an office.
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JL | Why did Mrs Spelman ask you to do the parliamentary secretarial work?
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TH | Initially Mrs Spelman had no constituency office or secretary to fulfil administrative duties. She asked whether I would do them: answering phone calls, faxes and so on.
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JL | Why did you agree to take this on?
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TH | I can't remember, but I was happy to fulfil the tasks. The children were at school in the day and I had time to do those duties for her.
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JL | Did she then offer you a job after the 1997 General Election?
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TH | Yes.
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JL | The question of pay is difficult but it is very important for the inquiry. Evidence I have received from one of Mrs Spelman's secretaries suggests that in 1999 you were paid around £12,000-£13,000 a year. Do you think that about right?
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TH | I can't honestly remember.
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JL | Mrs Spelman says she did not pay you any money for your nannying duties. Is that right?
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TH | Well, I had my own room, my own bathroom, the use of a car, and an expenses card for food and for the children.
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JL | Is it in your experience as a nanny usual for a nanny to receive no pay - just board and lodging and a car? Why was that arrangement acceptable to you?
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TH | This was my fourth job as a nanny. Generally as a nanny you get paid - but these circumstances were totally different from my previous jobs. My hours of nannying were three to four a day. The pay would have been minimal. All expenses were covered.
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JL | When you went for the job would you have accepted six months on a very low salary but with board and lodging and a car provided?
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TH | I was living in. The need for a higher wage wasn't there.
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JL | Would you have expected some wage?
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TH | It was just what happened; I can't remember more.
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JL | Can I confirm that when Mrs Spelman started to employ you on these duties she said that the office work was for a six month period?
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TH | Yes, it was for six months. She said 'provisionally' for six months. It could be longer depending on when she found a secretary.
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JL | Can you remember signing an employment contract, perhaps with a job description?
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TH | I am sure there was some document but I can't remember what. I can't remember if there was a job description.
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JL | Can you remember if you signed two contracts, one for the nanny work and one for the secretarial duties?
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TH | I can't remember.
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JL | Kent
You say you were in Kent for in effect just a few weeks at the beginning of June 1997 to early July 1997. Mrs Spelman recalls that an au pair looked after the children.
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TH | Yes, I remember an au pair. I did the odd bit of childcare, but I can't remember exactly how it worked. The majority of the childcare was done by the au pair. There might however be times in the early evening for example when I was needed to cover.
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JL | How do you know you did up to 18 hours a week as a secretarial assistant, as you state in your letter to me?
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TH | Well, it varied each day, dependent on the phone calls, faxes and post received. I might do two hours one day. Over a week, a number of weeks, it would be up to eighteen hours. I did at least 2-3 hours each day, and a five day week; overall it was about 18.
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JL | Tell me about the faxes and phone calls you received at this time, in Kent.
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TH | I can't remember much about them.
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JL | How was it possible to act as a constituency secretarial assistant when the constituency was in the midlands, not Kent? How did people know to send things to Kent?
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TH | I don't know how, but it did happen. I do recall receiving things. From what I can remember correspondence came to the house.
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JL | Was there a lot of post?
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TH | I can't remember the exact amount.
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JL | Mrs Spelman says you travelled up and down with her to the constituency. Is this right?
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TH | I do remember going up and down on the train, but not why.
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JL | Was any of this work focussed on domestic arrangements (e.g. moving house) or was it all in respect of Mrs Spelman's parliamentary duties?
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TH | I can't remember.
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JL | Mrs Spelman said in her evidence to me that the children moved to Knowle during the summer. Did the children come with you to Knowle in July 1997? Or did they arrive after you?
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TH | I can't remember. They arrived in the West Midlands a little while before school started in September. They finished school for the summer and then came.
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JL | Did the au pair move [to Knowle]?
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TH | I don't think so but I can't recall. If she did it was not for very long.
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JL | So is it right that after that you were the sole nanny or carer in charge?
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TH | Yes.
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| Constituency
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JL | Take me through your typical day.
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TH | The children would be taken to school, I think for about 9am. I did this most of the time but occasionally Mrs Spelman or her husband would do this. Then I would go back to the house.
While the children were at school I would do the duties asked of me: dealing with faxes, post as and when it arrived, dealing with phone calls. As for the post, I wouldn't say it was daily. The phone calls might be several one day and the next day one or two.
School finished at roughly 3.15 or 3.30pm. I would then have charge of the children because Mrs Spelman was in London Monday to Thursday generally.
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JL | Did your day have a routine to it? For example, was there a period in the day when you undertook your secretarial duties?
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TH | Well, taking the children to and from school was pretty consistent. I was available for the secretarial work between about 9.30am and 3pm, and the work was spread over five days. I was available for 18 hours.
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JL | What was the volume of letters coming in each day?
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TH | I can't remember. It could have been five or ten. It varied. But it wasn't as many as 30.
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JL | What about phone calls?
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TH | They were on a more regular daily basis, but I can't remember numbers or volume. It wasn't more than eight or nine phone calls a day, but it varied.
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JL | What about the faxes?
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TH | Well, there would be a fair few faxes. They all came in on the same line, and you would hear the fax tone when you went to answer. So you would press the button for the fax.
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JL | What do you mean by 'a fair few'?
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TH | There could be one or two
but other days there could be five or six.
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JL | Tell me about the filing.
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TH | Mrs Spelman had an office upstairs with a filing cabinet in it. It contained certain files for the constituency. I can't remember how the system was set up but if papers needed to be got out I would do this.
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JL | Mrs Spelman said you helped to create the system.
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TH | I can't remember. But there would have been a logical structure to it.
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JL | Can you help me on the amount of it?
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TH | It was very much according to what came in. Anything that came in or went out Mrs Spelman saw. It was filed away if it was finished with, or brought out if it needed to be brought out again.
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JL | How did the papers get to you for filing?
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TH | If they were faxed to Mrs Spelman she would have a copy. Or the original would be filed away in her office after I had faxed the copy to her. If any faxes came through I would fax a copy to Mrs Spelman. I would put the papers in the file so she knew where it was and I could pull it out.
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JL | How many visitors did you have to escort in a typical week?
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TH | I can't remember exactly. Sometimes it was 'Please take Mr Smith to Chelmsley Wood'. There were a lot of people from London who came without a car: I would take them to a place and pick them up.
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JL | Was it every week?
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TH | I can't remember exactly how often. Sometimes Mrs Spelman was around. It was a regular part of the job, but I couldn't say how frequent.
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JL | What sort of person rang you up?
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TH | It could be anybody. It could be a constituent saying 'There's an issue'. I would take their name and phone number and let Mrs Spelman know. Generally it was constituents but sometimes other MPs. The main number for quite a while was Mrs Spelman's home phone number.
There was not just one caller, as the media suggested. That was misleading. I couldn't recall every person's name but the names I do remember are the people in the public eye who called.
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JL | What about people coming to the door?
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TH | I remember people associated with the constituency calling at the door. I can't remember the names or if they were constituents. Constituents would generally see Mrs Spelman at the surgery, not at the house. They might be from the constituency association.
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JL | Was Mrs Spelman's home address in the public domain?
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TH | I don't know. The direct phone number was. Even after she had a secretary and an office I still got phone calls at her home.
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JL | Do you recall regular contacts with the local branch chairman of the NFU? I gather from Mrs Spelman that he would contact you about meetings.
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TH | I do remember that.
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JL | Paula Yates suggests you sometimes took work directly to councillors. Is that right? Why was that necessary?
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TH | Yes, I would take information to their home addresses - things that needed to get to them. Mrs Spelman would ask me to do this as and when needed. It was associated with constituency events, which were generally on a Friday.
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JL | How much time did you spend sorting the mail?
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TH | I can't remember the volume. It was as and when.
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JL | Mrs Spelman says you judged its urgency, including action needed by local councillors or the MEP. Do you remember how you made these judgements?
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TH | I read more newspapers then. I knew that certain areas were more important than others and I would know if things were needed within a day. It was common sense, if Mrs Spelman had something happening on a Friday, she would need to see the information.
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JL | If you decided that the information had to go to a councillor, what would have happened?
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TH | I would have posted it or driven it to the house if it was an urgent matter.
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JL | Was it of your own volition or on Mrs Spelman's instructions?
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TH | I can't remember.
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JL | What about sending information to the MEP?
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TH | I would take information to him or post it to him. I had a file of addresses to use. I remember the local MEP. He lived in the area and I would take it to his address.
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JL | Mrs Spelman says you reported back to her on the actions taken by councillors. How big a part of your job was that?
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TH | I do remember the actions. I had to tell Mrs Spelman what the councillor had said
Mr x had said '
' and she would say 'Thank you, Tina'.
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JL | Can you tell me about your relationship with the constituency office and Paula Yates? How often did you see her? She said you came to the office every week, usually on Monday and Friday, to collect and deliver mail. You don't mention this in your letter.
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TH | I do remember Paula, and taking stuff to her when I was there and then taking things back to Mrs Spelman as and when. The Solihull Conservative office was in Manor Road and Mrs Spelman had Paula there.
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JL | Can you give me an idea of how big a part of the job that was in terms of time?
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TH | Well the journey was 15-20 minutes by car depending on traffic. So there and back, including the time taken while there, you might say was 1 hour or 1½ hours.
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JL | I wonder why it didn't feature in your memory?
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TH | I do recollect. In my letter I have done my best, but it is a long time ago, and I don't remember everything.
I would go to the office more when Paula did the brunt of the work after 1999.
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JL | So after thinking about it, do you believe it was twice per week every week?
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TH | Yes probably twice but I can't honestly remember.
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JL | When you went there, what about the mail? Was it already sorted when you picked it up?
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TH | I can't remember.
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JL | Overall, in your eighteen hours, were you very busy, with a steady flow of work? Or was it spasmodic and were there times when frankly there was not much to do?
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TH | There was a steady flow, but with some days a lot more work and some a lot less. There were other bits and bobs I would do; one day might be taken up with calls and faxes, another with filing. I would balance the work out: I would be doing something on a daily basis. I would balance the day out.
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JL | Did you have to undertake some nannying duties when the children were at school: for example, shopping, washing, tidying their rooms and buying food?
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TH | Yes, but I would organise my day. I would have around three hours in the morning when I would do the secretarial work. And since I was living in, I would do duties in the early evening.
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JL | But the children would be there in the evening.
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TH | I balanced it out. I could do some tasks while they were there, for example if they were watching TV. I could still do duties if the children were around.
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JL | So would you say you did about 3½ hours of secretarial work a day?
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TH | Yes, I would be back from taking the children to school at 9am or 9.15am and I didn't have to leave again until 3.15 to 3.20pm. so I had six hours available.
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JL | What about a lunch hour? Your 3½ hours would take you to 1pm.
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TH | Yes, I would have two hours free for lunch, shopping and other tasks. I didn't always take a lunch hour. Sometimes I would eat on the run, with a sandwich in the car.
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JL | What about such tasks as tidying the children's rooms?
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TH | At a certain age you expect the children to do this. I would oversee them.
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JL | Did Mrs Spelman have a cleaner?
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TH | Yes, I did not do cleaning.
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JL | What happened if the children were ill or in school holidays?
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TH | The children did a lot of clubs: football clubs, clubs at the local leisure centre, football, cricket - these accounted for a proportion of the day even in the holidays.
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JL | In the holidays was the morning still set aside for your parliamentary duties?
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TH | I do remember doing the constituency work still; I would do this while the children were at clubs.
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JL | Was Mrs Spelman around in the holidays?
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TH | She was around more. I don't remember exactly how it was, but when Parliament was in recess there were times when she was in the House and times in the constituency.
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JL | I understand from Mrs Spelman that you were responsible overnight for the children from Monday to Thursday when Parliament was sitting. When did you get a break?
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TH | Well, they would be in bed at a certain time, about 7.30pm. I could get a break when they were at school or in bed in the evening; I was not necessarily working during the evening. I was technically on duty, but they rarely woke up and I had time in the evenings to relax, have a bath and eat.
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JL | You went home on Friday nights. Was there any weekend working?
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TH | Not that I can remember. There was no constituency work on Saturday or Sunday, but I might do babysitting as and when. It wasn't part of my regular duties and I would get time off in lieu or I would get paid.
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JL | What office equipment and supplies did you have in Mrs Spelman's house?
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TH | There was one phone line for both fax and phone. Private calls usually went to London. There was one line for everything.
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JL | Where did you work in Mrs Spelman's house? Did you have your own office?
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TH | There was an office upstairs which Mrs Spelman used if she was around. There was a telephone and filing cabinet. I would use that room as and when needed.
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JL | Would you go up there when you got back from school each day?
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TH | Yes but the fax was downstairs so you would have to go up and down stairs.
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JL | Did Mrs Spelman have a computer then?
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TH | Yes, but I don't remember using it. I don't think emails were used so much then: it was mainly faxes. Often there were 6 or 7 pages at a time.
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JL | How did you get your office supplies, like envelopes?
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TH | I could get them if I needed to. I had access to supplies. I can't say where they came from.
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JL | Was it your responsibility to look after the store cupboard and get the envelopes?
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TH | I can't remember.
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JL | 1999
How did Mrs Spelman explain to you in 1999 that she proposed to end your job as a secretarial assistant?
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TH | She said she had now found a suitable candidate - I think it was Paula - to fulfil the secretarial duties. She did a lot more than I did, and that included typing.
I do remember Mrs Spelman saying that the Whips' Office were saying there was a better way of doing things. But the main reason was that Mrs Spelman found a suitable candidate to fulfil the whole constituency role.
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JL | Initially you had taken on this role for about 6 months. But nearly two years had passed. Was there any conversation between you about this work between when you began and this time in 1999?
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TH | Well, it was ongoing. She had asked me 'Will you be available to do these duties until I find someone?' There was some sort of discussion: I am sure she sat down and said that the six months had come up and the duties would need to carry on for a while as she hadn't been able to find a suitable person.
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JL | Did this discussion happen frequently?
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TH | I can't remember. I carried on until I was asked to do otherwise.
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JL | Did Mrs Spelman give the impression that she was looking for somebody?
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TH | Yes, she probably would have said this, but I can't honestly remember.
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JL | You were in charge of the phone. Did you have any communications from interested people?
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TH | I can't remember.
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JL | What were the consequences of you ending your secretarial or administrative work? It had accounted for a substantial amount of time: 18 hours a week; you did it five days a week; and you had an income from it - we don't know how much, but we'll assume it was a reasonable sum. Suddenly the work stopped and you had free time and no income from that source. Did you get another job to fill the time?
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TH | No. I carried on with Mrs Spelman. She was still in need of childcare. We came to an agreement that I would be paid for my nanny duties. I took on more of a role during the day in the house: not doing the cleaning but making sure the cleaner was paid, and I had more duties associated with the children.
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JL | I am not clear how your duties had changed.
I have been given a PAYE return suggesting that in 1999 when Mrs Spelman started paying you, you were getting £13,000.
I am trying to see why you were getting paid this now when you weren't before.
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TH | At the end of the day that is the agreement we came to. We sat down and Mrs Spelman said there would be no more secretarial duties. But I was there for the children. They spent less time at clubs in the holidays; I had them more often than not, the majority of the time now. During the week I would pick up dry cleaning, tasks outside normal nanny duties, extra bits and pieces.
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JL | Who picked up the dry cleaning before?
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TH | I don't know.
I was helpful before 1999 and also after.
This was Mrs Spelman's decision. I spaced the jobs out.
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JL | Did the children no longer attend clubs in the holidays?
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TH | I spent more time with them, taking them down to London to see Mrs Spelman. I would be with them during the day.
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JL | How did Mrs Spelman explain to you the offer of £13,000?
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TH | I can't remember. She might have said that the circumstances had changed and this is how it would be. I still had a job and I was still paid. Yes, it was different but I was paid for my duties and I was getting a wage, so I was happy to have a job.
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JL | Would there have been a problem if Mrs Spelman hadn't paid you? Would you have looked for another job?
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TH | It is hard to say. Mrs Spelman was a very good employer. The issue didn't arise. Mrs Spelman didn't expect anyone to work for nothing.
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JL | Did you continue to do this work after June 1999 or did it wind down?
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TH | There was a crossover period but even after Paula was in the job for a while I still got letters to Mrs Spelman's home address because people had got used to sending post and faxes there. I would ring up Mrs Spelman or Paula and say 'This has come'. I would take post to the constituency office. If faxes related to the constituency I would take them to Paula or fax them on. Paula would say 'That can be faxed to me' or 'Bring it to the office'. Or I would do as Mrs Spelman asked me. This would happen more in term time but there would be times in the holidays when we might be on a day trip and I would divert and drop things into the office.
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JL | Did the phone number change?
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TH | The phone number was always in the directories, and people wrote out of habit to the home address.
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JL | Roughly how much of your time did this take?
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TH | It was a lot less frequent.
Once the office was in a separate building, it would be less frequent. The majority would get to Paula in her office. But it was an unusual week when I would have nothing. I can't remember more.
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JL | Did you still drive visitors around?
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TH | Yes, in term time, generally on a Friday. In the holidays if I had the children other arrangements would be made.
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JL | Was it as frequent as before?
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TH | I can't remember.
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| Pay |
JL | We believe we know what you were paid as a nanny from 1999, but we don't know about the time before that.
Can you remember whether you had a pay increase or a pay cut when Mrs Spelman started to pay you in 1999? I know it is hard to remember, but a pay cut usually sticks in the mind.
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TH | I can't remember. I wouldn't say my pay dropped, because I think I was happy. I can't say for certain, but it may have stayed the same or gone up; I can't remember.
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JL | Did you have a new employment contract?
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TH | I can't remember.
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JL | Thank you. That completes my questions. I am very grateful for your help. Is there any other point you would like to make?
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TH | I would like to say that it is different sitting here answering questions. I did my best with your letter, but sometimes I recalled more today.
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JL | Thank you. My notetaker will now write up the note and send it to you to confirm its accuracy.
|
The interview finished at about 11.50 am.
| Initial plans
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JL | Had CS given any thought before the election to the arrangements she would make in her constituency if elected?
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CS | She must have been about the last candidate selected; at first it had been thought that the vacancy would be filled after a by-election. Her main focus, as an unknown and non-local candidate, in the short time at her disposal, had been campaigning. A couple of things had been very important. She had given an undertaking to send her children to school in the constituency, and was not someone to renege on undertakings. She was aware that if elected the result would be a major change in the family's lifestyle. Without assuming she would win the seat (in the event her victory had been narrow), she had certainly thought about how she would manage if she did; other people in the constituency had also thought about it, and had made suggestions.
|
JL | What had been her predecessor's (Iain Mills) arrangements?
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CS | She had not known Iain Mills. She knew he had been assiduous, and had devoted a lot of time to surgeries, particularly on one very large council estate. She did not know what his secretarial arrangements had been, though she thought his wife might have worked for himcertainly she had brought over the backlog of correspondence.
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JL | Had Iain Mills had a constituency office?
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CS | She did not think sothere was no ready-made set-up she could have inherited. The short run to the election had been unusual, most candidates were selected a year in advance and had arrangements in place while she had had nothing. Beginning her work had therefore been very difficult.
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JL | Why had it been important that her constituency assistant should be at her housewhy had she not considered renting space elsewhere?
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CS | In 1997 Members' total budgets were much less than now. The salary of a Westminster secretary absorbed about half the allowance, and the remainder had to cover everything else including office equipment (there was no capital grant). She had been quite worried about the cost. She had made some inquiries about renting office space locally but it was quite dear. When she had moved to the model of a full time constituency secretary it had been difficult to manage the rent (£10,000), rates and cost of equipment. Her thinking at the time, then, had been influenced by cost but also by her need, as a non-local, to establish local credentials immediately and having Tina working from her family home would achieve that.
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JL | Had she considered asking someone else to work three or four hours a day?
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CS | She had hoped that the Association secretary might have been able to help, as was the usual model, which other MPs had said was a common solution. She had expected it would be possible, but for perfectly good reasons it had not been. She could not remember if Paula Yates (PY), the Association secretary, had actually said that when her child was at school she might be able to help. As to the possibility of employing someone else to work in her home, it had needed to be someone she could trust with sensitive matters, and such people were not easily available at short notice. The dual role for TH had seemed a workable alternative, given that the nanny work gave her time to do the work and a relationship of trust existed.
|
JL | But she had not known TH when she first employed her?
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CS | She had looked at her references.
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JL | Could she not have done the same for someone else?
|
CS | She had felt that it would be better for everyone to restrict the number of people with access to her home and children. The rented house had not been large (she agreed that later the family had moved to a larger one). She could not remember whether she had consciously thought about all these matters: the run-in to the new job had been difficult. She had needed an 'anchorman'. The constituency association had made clear that they could not help. It had seemed practical to ask TH to do the work.
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JL | Had CS discussed the proposed dual role for TH with the Fees Office?
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CS | Yes, they had said there was no problem.
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JL | Had she discussed it with the Whips?
|
CS | No. But she had been quite open about her arrangements. MP colleagues had been concerned that she should sort out a satisfactory arrangement, but no-one had suggested that her solution did not sound right.
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| Appointment
|
JL | When had CS first conceived of the dual role?
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CS | It had been obvious that in the case of other MPs, their families sometimes played a dual role. In her case, it had not been possible for her husband to do this. She had understood the need to identify clearly time available for the administrative duties. She believed that other female MPs had the same sort of arrangement in respect of their child care. She had needed to have someone 'on the ground' so that letters did not lie on the mat from Monday to Thursday. She had been anxious to make a good start in the constituency.
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JL | When had CS started to think she must look for someone to fill a dual role?
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CS | She could not remember at what point the constituency association had said they could not help.
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JL | TH had said that she believed the job offer was dependent on her doing both jobs. Was this so?
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CS | Yes, though she had not considered it in that way. The dual role had seemed a practical solution to which the Fees Office, when consulted, had not objected.
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JL | What would CS have done if TH had declined the dual role?
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CS | The question was theoretical and had not arisen. They had spoken of the dual role from the beginning.
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JL | Had TH understood the importance of keeping the roles separate?
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CS | Yes. There was a contrast in the evidence given to the Commissioner. The London staff had had difficulty seeing what TH did, people in the constituency had not. The London staff did not often visit the constituency. CS was absolutely satisfied that TH had kept the roles separate.
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JL | TH had told him that she thought that her office work had been provisionally for six months. Was that so?
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CS | She had hoped that PY would be able to take up more work. She could not recall the exact details of asking her, but the constituency minutes made it clear that it had been discussed. PY might have said that she would be more available when her daughter started nursery.
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JL | TH believed that she and CS might have had a further conversation after about six months. She thought CS might have confirmed then that she was to continue since CS had not been able to find a suitable candidate. Was that right?
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CS | She did not recollect such a conversation, but it would have been good practice.
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JL | Had CS been looking for someone else?
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CS | No. She needed someone in whom she had confidence, and had been waiting for PY, who would have been aware of her interest.
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JL | Could CS recall signing contracts at the beginning of the employment? Was it one contract or two?
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CS | She did not recall. She had been dismayed to learn that the Fees Office did not keep documents so far back (she was interested that they seemed to keep some, which was anomalous). There was one aspect about which she felt extremely strongly. After the Newsnight programme she had rung the Fees Office and been unable to get the information she sought. When she had seen the evidence of Sally Hammond (SH), it would appear that although the Fees Office made clear that it was not their practice to give out information about salaries, when SH had rung them in 1999 she had received it. CS had not known of this, and would have been very concerned if she had. She wondered about the motive for inquiring about other colleagues' salaries.
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JL | That assumed that they had indeed given out the information, and there was no record of that, although he assumed also that CS did not wish to challenge the basis of SH's evidence.
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CS | No, she did not challenge SH's account of the approach to the Fees Office.
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| TH's role: Kent
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JL | What had been the arrangements in the initial weeks in June/July 1997 when TH worked in CS's Kent home? He understood from CS's recent letter that the backlog of constituency correspondence had been taken to Kent in bags over a period of time as space in transport permitted. What had TH done with these bags full of letters?
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CS | In June 1997, CS had gone to the constituency, as a new MP, every weekend. Her husband had brought the children up every Friday after school, and driven them back on Sunday evening. She herself might stay in the constituency on Monday morning. The bags of correspondence had been taken to Kent by her husband as and when possible. CS had felt it important that the letters sent to her predecessor and not replied to should be properly dealt with. The volume of this correspondence had been such that work on it was not completed before she left Kent. CS and TH had divided up the work. TH would open the letters and arrange them sequentially, looking for series from the same writer. Obviously CS could not delegate actually dealing with the cases. It was important that CS and TH should have time to work together from Monday to Thursday (the House had not always sat late, allowing CS to work with TH in the evenings). This was work Georgina Perry (GP, the Westminster secretary) had not been willing to take on, and PY had not had time. It was not surprising that other staff did not know how the letters had got to Kent. Mr Spelman bringing them down with him in the car meant that they would not necessarily do so.
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JL | How had TH helped to set up the office in the constituency, as stated in CS' evidence, when she was working in Kent?
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CS | TH had been with CS in the midlands on Thursday, Friday and some Monday mornings. They had worked together to set up the office; TH had made up files covering the backlog of correspondence and transferred them to a filing cabinet upstairs in her rented house.
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JL | What had been done about new correspondence?
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CS | Not all new correspondence had come to London, though a significant amount had done. It had also been delivered to her rented home in the midlands (she had rented a house in March 1997), by post or in person. Sometimes, also, it had been sent to the Meriden Association office (although this was not in the constituency), from which it could be collected.
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JL | Was the address of the rented home in the directories?
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CS | Yes, she believed so, though she could now find no evidence of this. There were people in the constituency who recollected visiting her at her first address.
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JL | Was CS satisfied that TH had spent eighteen hours a week when she was based in Kent during the week on the parliamentary work?
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CS | Easily, because of the backlog.
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JL | How did the au pair fit into the arrangements?
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CS | The au pair had lived in and had worked throughout the election campaign when the children had been still in Kent. She had continued to work for CS until the family had gone on holiday in August 1997. CS was not aware of the arrangements made if the au pair wished to go out in the evening and TH may have covered for her then, but in general CS had not needed TH for childcare purposes in Kent.
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JL | Did the au pair move to Knowle for the first period?
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CS | The school term had ended with the first week in July and the family had moved to Knowle almost immediatelythere had been a strong incentive to move to the constituency as soon as possible. The au pair had stayed with them for that early period up to August 1997 when the family went on holiday.
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JL | After that, had TH had sole care of the children when CS was not there?
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CS | Yes, in the same way as an au pair or mother's help; she had lived in and taken responsibility overnight.
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| TH's role: the constituency
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JL | What was the arrangement of TH's work once she had moved to CS's home in the constituency, initially in a rented house and subsequently in CS's own house? TH had said that the house had had one phone line for everything including faxes, an office with filing cabinets and a fax machine downstairs. Was that correct?
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CS | It sounded right. She had been in fax communication with homeshe had had a fax machine when she was in the Whips' office, which had caused a certain amount of concern that it might be a distraction in the open plan office. CS and TH had also gone together to buy second-hand office equipment such as filing cabinets.
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JL | How had constituents known CS's home address and phone number?
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CS | She believed that they had known it. The local Association had been eager that it should be known that, although an incomer, she was living locally, and she had not discouraged them from publishing her details in as many documents as possible.
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JL | If CS had been in London during the week, how had she known that TH was working 18 hours a week on parliamentary business?
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CS | On Monday mornings, she and TH would agree what TH would do during the week. This would include taking cases which had come up at surgery and should be dealt with by councillors to those councillors. TH knew the area. It was a large constituency, 45 minutes drive across, with Conservative councillors mainly located in rural areas; this meant a lot of driving. TH would also be asked to go to the Association office to collect the surgery schedule. There had also been bread and butter workopening post, deciding whether something was sufficiently urgent to be sent to London, passing on messages. There had been no reason to believe TH had not worked the hoursCS had the evidence in the product, and others remembered it being brought to them. Of its nature there would be no evidence in London of such work.
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JL | In TH's evidence, while the workload had varied, she had received five or ten letters a day, not more than eight or nine phone calls, and up to five or six faxes, done some escorting of visitors and ferrying papers to and from Solihull. Did CS consider this added up to 18 hours work a week?
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CS | She believed it did. PY had found it hard to fit in all the work when she had taken over. It might be helpful to record that in October 2008 she had hired a local person to do 15 hours a week in addition to what PY was doing, as her new secretary in London could not cope with the volume of work. There was a danger that letters would sit on the mat unopened.
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JL | Was CS suggesting that the volume of work was higher than TH implied?
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CS | She would not question TH's view.
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JL | But when PY succeeded TH, she was working fourteen hours not eighteen?
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CS | Yes, but TH had continued dealing with letters and phone calls which had continued to go to her home. After the dual arrangement had ceased, CS had been happy to pay for this service out of her own pocket. She had needed to be accessible to her constituents. Her constituency had a high-dependency caseload. People were loath to make trunk calls to London.
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RMI | How often had CS held surgeries?
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CS | She had inherited five locations for surgeries and had tried to follow her predecessor's schedule. She had tried to alternate between Friday afternoon and Saturday morning, and had subsequently introduced a Thursday evening slot.
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JL | TH had said her nannying hours had been three to four a day. Was this not rather light?
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CS | The main workload had been after school, except for about half an hour in the morning. The children had been young and would have been in bed early.
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JL | If the working hours for TH as a secretarial assistant had been eighteen a week, did CS have a similar recollection of those for nannying?
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CS | Once children are at school, as hers were, many mothers scale down their nanny requirements. But she had thought it appropriate to have someone in the house overnight.
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JL | Had CS been concerned that TH might be overloaded?
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CS | She had given no indication she was, and had seemed to enjoy the work.
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JL | Could she confirm, as stated in her letter of 3rd July, that she helped with the childcare during recesses?
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CS | Yes. The recesses were broadly in accordance with the school timetable and it was a benefit to the children of MPs that the MP parent was around in the holidays. When she was in the constituency she had control of her own diary.
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JL | TH had said that the children had spent time attending clubs in the holidays as well as term time. Could she recall how this had worked?
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CS | Many such clubs used school premises in the holidays, and such clubs might last all day.
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JL | What happened if the children were ill?
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CS | She had been fortunate in the health of her children. Except for one day, none of her children was ill throughout the period in question: nor was TH.
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| Pay and conditions
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JL | Neither CS nor TH was sure how much TH had been paid. There were four pieces of relevant evidence.
One of CS's secretaries said that she believed that in 1999 CS had paid TH £12,000 or £13,000;
The PAYE return submitted by CS showing that she paid TH around £13,000 for her nannying duties in 1999. TH did not think her pay dropped when she lost her secretarial job, but stayed the same or went up;
CS's letter of 17 September, suggesting that she had had about £12,000 left for constituency staff and offices from her Office Costs Allowance of £47,568;
Invoices suggesting that when CS stopped paying TH as her secretarial assistant in 1999, she employed PY at £8.60 an hour for fourteen hours a week, the equivalent of £6,300 a year.
All this suggested that CS might have been paying TH as her secretarial assistant somewhere between £6,300 and £13,000 a year in 1999. Could CS help more on what she actually paid?
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CS | The payment to TH must have been in the range JL suggested, but she did not recall. She had been worried about managing the budget, and had been surprised to find that office equipment had to come out of it.
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JL | Why did CS decide to pay TH £13,000 after the ending of the dual arrangement?
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CS | TH was a trusted employee. CS knew that she could not stop some parliamentary tasks continuing. She thought it appropriate that TH should not be out of pocket as a result.
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JL | Did that point to TH's pay being around £13,000 when the dual arrangement ended?
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CS | She could not remember the precise salary, but of course the salary she was receiving from parliamentary allowances in 1999 must have been more than she was receiving in 1997 since it would have been only fair to give her an uprating to reflect any uprating given to Members.
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JL | What additional work had TH taken on when the dual role had ended?
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CS | TH had continued to perform some administrative tasks, and this had been reflected in the salary, which she was now paying out of her own pocket. The children were now older and more demanding, needing, for instance, more help with homework in the evenings, and other particular support.
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JL | Was it correct to say that when PY had started work, CS had paid her considerably less than she had paid TH?
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CS | No contract existed, but she would have paid what PY would have regarded as a fair salary. PY was not on a parliamentary contractthe association billed CS for her services. Local salaries were lower than parliamentary ones.
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JL | But had not TH worked locally as well?
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CS | She had taken advice from the Fees Office on TH's salary. New MPs had not received much guidance from the Fees Office on how to handle their budgets.
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JL | How had CS established that £13,000 was appropriate for TH's pay after the dual arrangement ceased?
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CS | TH had proved a valuable staff member, and some duality remained. Given she now had more time available, CS could ask her to do more with the children.
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JL | Noted that up to 1999 TH had not been paid anything for her nannying work. Why was that?
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CS | TH had been on the same basis as an au pair, living in and receiving her board. A car had been bought for her use in the dual role. After 1999 the arrangement had been changed to pay her £13,000 as well as board, lodging and car. TH had seen her remuneration as a total package and CS had not wanted TH to lose out. CS had not wanted to lose TH's services and knew she would continue to need her to be her anchorman in the constituency, which was why she had been prepared to recognise her continued assistance with parliamentary work out of her own pocket.
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JL | How did CS respond to the suggestion that TH had been enabled to work without receiving money as a nanny until 1999 because she had been being paid money as a secretarial assistant?
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CS | TH, like the au pair, had received pocket money in respect of her childcare function. TH had been happy with the arrangement. As long as the taxpayer did not suffer, CS's childcare arrangements were a matter between her and TH. There were no parliamentary rules on the subject. TH had been content to do the nannying work on the basis of board, lodging and use of a car.
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JL | Would the terms of employment be less of a private matter if money from Parliament had been spent on providing CS with childcare?
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CS | It was not. There was no allowance for childcare. She had gone to the Fees Office to ask if it was permissible to have someone both providing childcare and parliamentary services and been told that it was. She had asked how much she should pay and been given the pay scales.
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JL | Was it not the case that parliamentary rules in relation to not using parliamentary expenditure for a personal benefit would be engaged if the salary CS was paying TH enabled her to work for CS as a nanny without additional cash payments?
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CS | Did not accept that that was the position. She paid TH the rate for her parliamentary work but she made provision for TH for the nannying duties which were the same as she had had for the au pair except that TH also had use of a car, which she had bought to enable her to carry out her parliamentary work but which she could use at other times.
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JL | PY was paid substantially less to do broadly the same work as TH, except PY also did the typing. Why was that?
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CS | She did not recall making the comparison between the two salary levels. TH had had a contract drawn up by the Fees Office for her parliamentary activities, and PY had not, so the comparison was not obvious. PY had asked for what she had thought was the right amount[128].
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JL | The Green Book provided that parliamentary allowances could not be used to pay for items of a personal nature. Was any element of TH's pay for such services?
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CS | TH had accepted the same working conditions as an au pair in respect of her nannying duties, and this had seemed reasonable to both parties. CS had not analysed the position in the same way as JL. She had gone out of her way to ensure that TH had a period of time clear for the parliamentary work. She had not set out to benefit at the expense of the taxpayershe attached great importance to integrity.
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JL | CS had said earlier that TH had seen her employment arrangements as a total package. Had CS felt the same way or had she separated the elements?
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CS | She had not thought in those terms. In 1997 when she had realised that there was a problem as the constituency association were not able to help she had found what she thought was a practical solution to the problem. She had explained freely what she intended to do, and no-one has said it could not be done.
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JL | Had CS explained to the Fees Office the terms and conditions of TH's employment, including the terms under which she was employed as a nanny?
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CS | She could not remember the exact conversation, but why would they have a view? TH had been happy with the arrangements; she had been proud to be working for an MP, and the quality of her service showed that she was right to be.
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JL | Could TH explain the reference to paying pocket money to her childcare staff?
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CS | There had been a household float, but neither the au pair nor TH had received any money for herself. A car had been bought for TH's use.
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JL | Should CS's reference in her letter to GP of February 1999 to wanting to employ PY for more hours in the constituency office be taken to imply that PY was already doing some work for CS?
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CS | No. She had always hoped and expected that eventually PY would be able to work for her, but up to that point PY's involvement had been restricted to booking surgeries.
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JL | How had CS decided that PY could do in fourteen hours what TH had been doing in eighteen?
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CS | Some work had remained with THin addition to what PY did, TH did some filing and taking material to councillors.
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JL | Had TH continued to do some driving on behalf of CS?
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CS | Yes, for instance picking her up from the station or driving the intern to the location of his project.
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JL | In her letter to GP following their conversation of February 25th 1999, CS had mentioned the loss of 'Stuart'. Who was he, and what was the relevance of his loss to the decision to reduce her Westminster support?
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CS | He had been a trained agent, seconded to the constituency because it was marginal. His departure had meant additional pressure on PY but was not otherwise relevant.
CS said that she found it very difficult to terminate people's employment, and had found it hard to do in the case of the two parliamentary secretaries, SH and GP. There had been differences of opinion with GP, for instance about the use of an answering machine rather than the attendant message serviceCS believed it was important for constituents to reach her office itself. She had supplied both with good references. Since that period, however, she had had a long and happy experience with someonewho had indeed returned after maternity leave.
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JL | Had CS changed her contact details in directories after the ending of the dual arrangement?
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CS | Doing so was difficult. They had gone ex-directory after she and TH had received a nuisance call, but it still appeared that a number of people had her numberand it was not possible to hide an address. Further, she wanted to make a virtue out of living in the constituency.
CS made a number of concluding points.
- None of the evidence hostile to her was from people in the constituency. She had provided a number of character references from people who knew her and TH.
- TH was the only person doing parliamentary work for CS when she was first elected. No complaints had been made about this work.
- Unlike most candidates, CS had had no planned run-up to election, and had had to dismantle and relocate all her arrangements while Parliament was sitting.
- The pay and conditions made available to TH for the childcare were commensurate with those previously given to her au pair, and she had in addition provided a car.
- The rules governing the use of parliamentary allowances in 1997 were different from those in force in 2008.
- SH had worked for her at Westminster from 12 April to 10 September 1999. The arrangement with TH had changed in May. SH must have been a very recent employee when she went to a third party (the former Opposition Deputy Chief Whip) raising questions about the employment of TH. If SH had had concerns about her pay rate, why had she not raised them at the outset of her employment? Despite the fact that she had been told by the Opposition Chief Whip that SH had spoken to his deputy about the arrangements regarding TH, CS had tried to work the matter out with SH. She felt MPs also needed more help in handling and if necessary terminating working relationships.
- CS liked to think of herself as a good employer who was not given to sacking people and would always try and work things out. She had just wanted a better service for her constituents. [Her Chief of Staff] said that normally people were happy to work for CS.
- It was hard to know what it cost to run offices in 1997, but a senior secretary would absorb about half the £47,000 available, and no additional provision was made for office equipment. She had known that there would be a residue in the allowance after she had made the basic provision, and she had gone to talk to the Fees Office about spending this. She felt new MPs needed more guidance.
- CS had a large constituency with a big caseload. She was expected to live in the local community. She had gone in expecting more help from PY, which had, of course, eventually materialised, but when the dual arrangement was terminated she had known that TH would continue to do some parliamentary work.
- She wished to submit one more piece of evidence, a note from the local chairman of the NFU [WE 58], in which he had noted from his diary the dates on which he had contacted TH at the constituency home. He was an example of someone who was unwilling to make a trunk call to London.
- CS said that it had never occurred to her that there was a difference between the pay levels of TH and PY and that this might be regarded as significant. She had not noticed; this was probably because they were paid under two different accounting systems.
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JL thanked CS for her help with his inquiry and [her Chief of
Staff] for accompanying her to the meeting.