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House of Commons
Session 2009 - 10
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Delegated Legislation Committee Debates



The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chairman: Mr. Martyn Jones
Binley, Mr. Brian (Northampton, South) (Con)
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie (Blyth Valley) (Lab)
Clarke, Mr. Charles (Norwich, South) (Lab)
David, Mr. Wayne (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales)
Dunne, Mr. Philip (Ludlow) (Con)
Fallon, Mr. Michael (Sevenoaks) (Con)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh, South) (Lab)
Jones, Mr. David (Clwyd, West) (Con)
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC)
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine (Bridgend) (Lab)
Morden, Jessica (Newport, East) (Lab)
Ruane, Chris (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
Smith, Chloe (Norwich, North) (Con)
Tami, Mark (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
Watson, Mr. Tom (West Bromwich, East) (Lab)
Williams, Mark (Ceredigion) (LD)
Ben Williams, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee

Eleventh Delegated Legislation Committee

Wednesday 3 March 2010

[Mr. Martyn Jones in the Chair]

Draft Welsh Zone (Boundaries and Transfer of Functions) Order 2010
2.30 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wayne David): I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Welsh Zone (Boundaries and Transfer of Functions) Order 2010.
It is a pleasure to be here today and to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Jones. The order does two things. First, it sets out the boundaries of the Welsh zone. Secondly, it transfers the exercise of fisheries functions in that zone from Ministers of the Crown to the Welsh Ministers. I shall set out some background to the establishment of the zone before dealing with the rationale for the change.
The Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 amended the Government of Wales Act 2006 to include a definition of the Welsh zone and to allow the transfer of ministerial functions connected to fisheries, fishing and fish health to the Welsh Ministers in the part of the zone that is outside territorial sea limits. The 2006 Act, as amended, defines the Welsh zone as the sea adjacent to Wales that is within British fishery limits and specified in an Order in Council under section 58, or an order under section 158.
This order is brought forward under section 58 of the 2006 Act. The boundaries of the zone are defined in article 3, and the co-ordinates in the schedule to the order. To the north of Wales, points 1 to 8 in part 1 of the schedule replicate the boundary between England and Wales in the Dee estuary by following the line defined in the National Assembly for Wales (Transfer of Functions) Order 1999. At the end of those points, the boundary follows a simplified median line between Wales and north-west England until contact with the Isle of Man territorial sea at point 11. The Isle of Man territorial sea limit is then followed in a westerly direction until the point where contact is made with the boundary of the Northern Ireland zone. From that point, the boundary follows the Northern Ireland zone in a south-westerly direction until point 12, where the Northern Ireland zone meets the extent of British fishery limits.
Similarly, the southern boundary of the Welsh zone begins by following the boundary between England and Wales in the Severn estuary and the Bristol channel, along the same line as was defined in the 1999 transfer of functions order. It then follows a simplified median line in, first, a south westerly and then a westerly direction until the boundary reaches the extent of British fishery limits at point 22 of part 2 of the schedule. The western boundary of the zone is the British fishery limits. It might help if hon. Members had a look at the maps.
Functions that can be transferred to the Welsh Ministers by an Order in Council under section 58 of the 2006 Act are, in the part of the zone beyond the territorial sea, limited by subsection (1)(a) to functions connected with fishing, fisheries or fish health. The fisheries functions that are to transfer from Ministers of the Crown to the Welsh Ministers are listed in article 4 of this order.
The functions are to be vested in the Welsh Ministers on the same basis on which they are exercisable by them at present in the territorial sea adjacent to Wales. The functions to be transferred include powers under the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967—the principal Act used for the regulation of commercial fishing throughout England and Wales. It includes the power to restrict fishing for sea fish, including regulating the fishery for a specific species, at a specific time or at a specific location, and regulating the size of the fish that can be caught or landed and the methods by which that fishing is undertaken.
The Welsh Ministers will also, under the Fisheries Act 1981, be able to make provision for the enforcement of EU restrictions and obligations relating to sea fish. The duty on Welsh Ministers under the Sea Fisheries (Wildlife Conservation) Act 1992 to have regard to the conservation of marine flora and fauna in discharging functions under sea fisheries legislation will also be extended to cover the whole of the zone. While most functions are being transferred entirely to the Welsh Ministers, in cases where a function is at present exercisable by them concurrently with UK Ministers in the territorial sea, it will also be exercisable on a concurrent basis in the rest of the Welsh zone.
These concurrent functions are listed in article 5, and include further functions under the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967 in relation to the licensing of fishing vessels. The concurrent nature of the UK licensing functions is central to the principles of a single UK fishing licence. Also included are powers under the Sea Fisheries Act 1968 to regulate the conduct of sea fishing operations so far as they relate to the identification and marking of fishing boats and, finally, functions under the British Fishing Boats Act 1983 relating to the qualification for British fishing boats to be used in fishing, transhipment and landing of sea fish.
I will now turn briefly to the policy underpinning this order. The Welsh Ministers’ overriding policy aim, as set out in the accompanying explanatory memorandum, is the creation of viable and sustainable fisheries in the waters around Wales, as described in the Wales fisheries strategy. The creation of the zone will simplify the jurisdiction, better reflect practical realities and enable the more coherent management of fisheries off the Welsh coast. The vast majority of the Welsh fishing fleet operate within the zone, and its creation would put Wales on a similar footing to the other devolved Administrations, each of which already has a fisheries zone.
I draw hon. Members’ attention to the fact that Parliament has already agreed the principle of the Welsh zone by virtue of its inclusion in the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. This order simply gives the zone practical effect.
Finally, a further effect of establishing the zone is to define the boundaries of the Welsh offshore region, one of the eight marine planning regions in UK waters created by the 2009 Act. The Act provides for the Welsh Ministers to be the marine plan authorities for both the Welsh offshore and inshore regions, and to prepare marine plans for these regions. The Welsh offshore region would not be defined in the absence of this order.
This draft order has already been approved by the Welsh Ministers and by Grand Committee in the other place, and I commend it to the House.
2.38 pm
Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): May I say what a great pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr. Jones? As we have heard from the Minister, the purpose of the order is to transfer functions to the Welsh Ministers and to amend the Government of Wales Act 2006 by inserting a definition of the Welsh zone into section 158(1). The order has been awaited for some time since the enactment of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 and it defines the Welsh zone by reference to the boundaries that are set out in article 3 and are very conveniently reproduced in graphical form in the map that has been provided for us today.
I understand that there has been some delay in determining the extent of the Welsh and other zones because of negotiations that were proceeding with the Scottish and Northern Irish Administrations. The practical consequence of the order, as we have heard, is to secure that functions currently exercisable by a Minister of the Crown in relation to the Welsh zone will in future be exercisable by the Welsh Ministers, so far as those referred to in article 4(1)(a) are concerned. Those essentially relate to sea fisheries. So far as article 5 is concerned, other functions will be concurrently exercisable by a Minister of the Crown and the Welsh Ministers. These essentially relate to the licensing of fishing boats and the description of the qualifications for British fishing boats.
There are one or two matters about which I would appreciate the Minister’s assistance this afternoon. First, could he tell us what consultation is expected between Ministers of the Crown and the Welsh Ministers about the functions that are concurrently exercisable and how those concurrent functions will be exercised in practice? Secondly, article 6 provides:
“Any provision of section 4 or 4A of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967 requiring the consent of the Treasury to the exercise of a function does not apply in relation to the exercise of the function by the Welsh Ministers.”
Could the Minister please say why that is the case?
Thirdly, article 8 provides that the provisions of paragraph 1(1) of schedule 4 to the Government of Wales Act, relating to the transfer of property and so on, do not apply to documentary or electronic records to which a Minister of the Crown is entitled in connection with any function exercisable by that Minister and transferred by this order. What arrangements, if any, will be put in place for access by Welsh Ministers to those records?
In summary, the order simply perfects the provisions of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 relating to the establishment of the Welsh zone and, further to those observations, I have nothing to add.
2.42 pm
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Could the Minister tell us whether this transfer order allows us to change the names of the waterway between Wales and Ireland? Currently it is the St. George’s channel. Could it become the St. David’s channel or the St. Patrick’s channel, or even the St. David and St. Patrick’s channel?
2.43 pm
Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr. Jones. I have a few brief remarks in support of this order. It specifies the boundaries of the Welsh zone and brings all remaining functions to do with fishing, fisheries and fish health under the control of Welsh Ministers. In the spirit of devolution, if nothing else, that is a welcome measure. As part of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, the Assembly Government wanted to bring fisheries functions in-house under the control of the relevant Welsh Minister, hence the establishment of the Welsh zone under the Act.
The Minister went to great lengths to explain the boundaries of the Welsh zone. I did not see the map and I got a bit lost as he was exploring the coast of Wales.
Chris Ruane: You were all at sea.
Mark Williams: Indeed. It is a good map and this is a welcome extension of the zone. The Minister was kind enough to come to Aberystwyth to talk to a meeting of people concerned about the re-emergence of industrial scallop dredging in Cardigan bay, so he will appreciate that the picture is very complex. Before the order came into being, five bodies dealt with such matters: the Welsh Assembly Government, the Marine Fisheries Agency, two local government sea fisheries committees and the Environment Agency. Now, we have a simplified process and that is welcome.
The explanatory memorandum says that the Welsh Assembly Government are confident that the creation of the Welsh zone will not weaken the UK’s position in EU fisheries matters. We very much agree with that. What procedures for cross-governmental working have been set up to ensure that the Welsh voice is heard strongly at a European level? Is the Minister satisfied that all functions relating to fisheries have now been transferred?
We welcome the transfer of powers over fisheries to the Welsh Assembly Government, and this order puts in place the necessary framework. The Minister was right to stress the need for the development of a sustainable fisheries policy. The debate in Cardigan bay has been a scary one, given the re-emergence of the industrial scallop dredgers, which have been a real threat to what is left of the fishing industry there. The Assembly has a good fisheries strategy, and these procedural points and the new organisational arrangements will mean that we can move forward in a positive way with public confidence and, in particular, with the confidence of the small fishing fleet around the coast of Wales.
2.45 pm
Mr. Tom Watson (West Bromwich, East) (Lab): The Minister has given a clear explanation of what the instrument can do; I should like to thank him for that. One thing that concerns me is the name: “Welsh zone” strikes me as Soviet. I do not think the Minister has gone far enough. Wales needs its own sea and I ask him to consider renaming the Welsh zone the Wales sea.
2.46 pm
Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): What a very good idea.
Chris Ruane: You’re sorry you didn’t think of it first.
Mr. Llwyd: Absolutely.
It is an unbridled pleasure to serve under your very able chairmanship once again, Mr. Jones. In opening what I anticipate will be a short debate, the Minister eloquently described the boundaries of the area we are concerned with. Such eloquence I have seldom come across in this place. If he had waved the map around he could saved himself a lot of time. The point is that it is quite clear and it is definite for all to see. As others have said, it is a consequence of the recent legislation.
I should like to make two small points. As the hon. Member for Ceredigion said, there will be enforcement regarding large industrial scallop dredging, which is long overdue. In previous discussions on this matter, my comments have been misconstrued as giving the impression that I am against sustainable fishing, particularly scallop fishing. As a conspicuous and regular consumer of sustainable scallops, I could hardly stand up and say that I am against the whole idea. Clearly, it is an important business and an important element of fishery—for the Ceredigion bay it is extremely important—so I welcome this development. I place on the record once more that I am 100 per cent. in favour of sustainable scallop fishing. That means outlawing the large dredgers that come in and decimate parts of the bay, leaving them in that condition for 10 or 12 years to come and weakening the ecology of the whole bay.
Paragraph 8.3 of the explanatory memorandum states:
“The Welsh Assembly Government also does not intend to redirect any resources away from the management of inshore fisheries due to the creation of the Welsh zone.”
One hopes there will be full understanding between our friends in the Isle of Man and England about enforcement, because these large vessels can scarper very quickly. I hope there will be sufficient vessels within the Welsh zone, but also that we actively encourage participation and understanding between those who represent the English zone and the Isle of Man area. So there is that job of work to be done if this measure is to work properly in the way that we all want, in order to enhance the coast, sea fisheries and wildlife.
It is not a contentious matter, and I just have those few remarks to make.
2.49 pm
Mr. David: It has been a short, but interesting debate. I thank members of the Committee for their contributions and questions, and I shall try to respond at least to most of the issues that have been raised. The hon. Member for Clwyd, West asked about consultation. There has been significant, comprehensive consultation with Departments, the Welsh Assembly Government and bodies outside, and that has led to what is before us today. The hon. Gentleman referred specifically to Treasury consent, and said that article 6 provided that Treasury consent or approval requirements will cease. That is because Welsh Ministers issue licences to fishing boats for the trans-shipment of fish under sections 4 and 4A of Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967. Welsh Ministers exercise such functions within the boundary of the territorial sea and the order ensures that the functions will be exercisable in the same way throughout the whole Welsh zone.
Records are not being transferred, but arrangements for Wales, and for Ministers to have access to records are being put in place. I assure the Committee that administrative arrangements are already in place to ensure that what is needed to enable the Welsh Assembly Government to have access to necessary records as well as for the purposes of disclosure of any court proceedings will be included. Such issues have already been given due consideration.
The Welsh Assembly Government have considered whether they have sufficient resources to administer their new responsibilities, and we have been informed that the changes will not result in an extra administrative burden. In effect, the zone will be cost neutral and should not displace resources currently used to manage the inshore region. I wish to reinforce my point about consultation. That has taken place between Ministers of the Crown and Welsh Ministers, and naturally an ongoing dialogue is taking place. There is a genuine consensus about the way forward.
Mr. Jones: I am grateful to the Minister. He will recall that I referred to how, in practice, the concurrent exercise of functions between Ministers of the Crown and Welsh Ministers would operate. In other words, who will be responsible for what? If the exercises take place concurrently, how will that be achieved in practice?
Mr. David: The essential thrust of what we have before us is devolving responsibility to the Welsh Assembly Government. It will be a continuing shift in emphasis. There will also be partnership. The functions that are to be exercised concurrently will be done jointly on the basis of agreement between the Welsh Assembly Government and central Government. The arrangements have already been discussed, and it is simply a matter of implementing them.
The hon. Member for Ceredigion, as well as the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, drew attention to scallop dredging. As they said, it is an important issue. I visited Ceredigion and met several parties with different views about the matter. It is fair to say that, on 8 February 2010, Elin Jones, realising the seriousness of the issue, introduced the Scallop Fishing (Wales) (No. 2) Order 2010, which is due to come into force in time for the opening of the scallop fisheries season on 1 March. That, in itself, is an explicit recognition of the seriousness of the situation.
Mark Williams: I should place on record my support for Miss Elin Jones’s decision. She shares my constituency, and the moves that she took are welcome. The beauty of what we have before us is that her remit is that much greater. There has been concern about the enforcement and who has responsibility for enforcement within the 12 miles or beyond the 12 miles.
Mr. David: Indeed; I was about to come to that point. The order prohibits scallop dredging in areas deemed environmentally sensitive—including parts of Cardigan bay about which the hon. Gentleman is concerned—in advance of further studies being undertaken. It also places further technical restrictions on the type of vessel and the gear used for scallop dredging. What we have before us addresses many of his concerns.
Concern was expressed about whether there would be engagement at European level. Relations with the European Union are a reserved matter; nevertheless, over the past few years we have seen greater involvement by the Welsh Assembly Government in the formal discussions and negotiations at a European level. That is already happening on fisheries, and I believe it will continue. The Welsh interest will be taken fully into account, albeit indirectly, at a European level.
Finally, there were a couple of references to the descriptions used. As my name is David, of course I would be pleased, as my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd suggested, if St. George’s channel were renamed St. David’s channel. Unfortunately, I think that that is beyond the order before us.
I am slightly concerned about the belief of my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, East that the Government are using Soviet-style terminology. If that is the case, I can assure him it is unintentional. There will be an ongoing discussion about description and nomenclature, and the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy will ensure that the issue does not slip off the agenda entirely.
Question put and agreed to.
2.56 pm
Committee rose.
 
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