The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Chairman:
Mr.
Martyn
Jones
Binley,
Mr. Brian
(Northampton, South)
(Con)
Campbell,
Mr. Ronnie
(Blyth Valley)
(Lab)
Clarke,
Mr. Charles
(Norwich, South)
(Lab)
David,
Mr. Wayne
(Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Wales)
Dunne,
Mr. Philip
(Ludlow)
(Con)
Fallon,
Mr. Michael
(Sevenoaks)
(Con)
Griffiths,
Nigel
(Edinburgh, South)
(Lab)
Jones,
Mr. David
(Clwyd, West)
(Con)
Llwyd,
Mr. Elfyn
(Meirionnydd Nant Conwy)
(PC)
Moon,
Mrs. Madeleine
(Bridgend)
(Lab)
Morden,
Jessica
(Newport, East)
(Lab)
Ruane,
Chris
(Vale of Clwyd)
(Lab)
Smith,
Chloe
(Norwich, North)
(Con)
Tami,
Mark
(Alyn and Deeside)
(Lab)
Watson,
Mr. Tom
(West Bromwich, East)
(Lab)
Williams,
Mark
(Ceredigion) (LD)
Ben
Williams, Committee Clerk
attended the Committee
Eleventh
Delegated Legislation
Committee
Wednesday 3
March
2010
[Mr.
Martyn Jones in the
Chair]
Draft
Welsh Zone (Boundaries and Transfer of Functions) Order
2010
2.30
pm
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wayne
David): I beg to
move,
That
the Committee has considered the draft Welsh Zone (Boundaries and
Transfer of Functions) Order
2010.
It
is a pleasure to be here today and to serve under your chairmanship,
Mr. Jones. The order does two things. First, it sets out the
boundaries of the Welsh zone. Secondly, it transfers the exercise of
fisheries functions in that zone from Ministers of the Crown to the
Welsh Ministers. I shall set out some background to the establishment
of the zone before dealing with the rationale for the
change.
The
Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 amended the Government of Wales Act
2006 to include a definition of the Welsh zone and to allow the
transfer of ministerial functions connected to fisheries, fishing and
fish health to the Welsh Ministers in the part of the zone that is
outside territorial sea limits. The 2006 Act, as amended, defines the
Welsh zone as the sea adjacent to Wales that is within British fishery
limits and specified in an Order in Council under section 58, or an
order under section
158.
This
order is brought forward under section 58 of the 2006 Act. The
boundaries of the zone are defined in article 3, and the co-ordinates
in the schedule to the order. To the north of Wales, points 1 to 8 in
part 1 of the schedule replicate the boundary between England and Wales
in the Dee estuary by following the line defined in the National
Assembly for Wales (Transfer of Functions) Order 1999. At the end of
those points, the boundary follows a simplified median line between
Wales and north-west England until contact with the Isle of Man
territorial sea at point 11. The Isle of Man territorial sea limit is
then followed in a westerly direction until the point where contact is
made with the boundary of the Northern Ireland zone. From that point,
the boundary follows the Northern Ireland zone in a south-westerly
direction until point 12, where the Northern Ireland zone meets the
extent of British fishery
limits.
Similarly,
the southern boundary of the Welsh zone begins by following the
boundary between England and Wales in the Severn estuary and the
Bristol channel, along the same line as was defined in the 1999
transfer of functions order. It then follows a simplified median line
in, first, a south westerly and then a westerly direction until the
boundary reaches the extent of British fishery limits at point 22 of
part 2 of the schedule. The western boundary of the zone is the British
fishery limits. It might help if hon. Members had a look at
the
maps.
The
Welsh zone includes both the territorial sea adjacent to Wales, out to
12 nautical miles, and the sea outside the territorial boundary but
within the defined
limits. Welsh Ministers already exercise fisheries functions within the
boundary of the territorial sea, and as such this order merely extends
the area in which the Welsh Ministers may exercise those functions to
include the area of the Welsh zone outside the territorial
seain other words, beyond 12 nautical
miles.
Functions
that can be transferred to the Welsh Ministers by an Order in Council
under section 58 of the 2006 Act are, in the part of the zone beyond
the territorial sea, limited by subsection (1)(a) to functions
connected with fishing, fisheries or fish health. The fisheries
functions that are to transfer from Ministers of the Crown to the Welsh
Ministers are listed in article 4 of this
order.
The
functions are to be vested in the Welsh Ministers on the same basis on
which they are exercisable by them at present in the territorial sea
adjacent to Wales. The functions to be transferred include powers under
the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967the principal Act used for
the regulation of commercial fishing throughout England and Wales. It
includes the power to restrict fishing for sea fish, including
regulating the fishery for a specific species, at a specific time or at
a specific location, and regulating the size of the fish that can be
caught or landed and the methods by which that fishing is
undertaken.
The Welsh
Ministers will also, under the Fisheries Act 1981, be able to make
provision for the enforcement of EU restrictions and obligations
relating to sea fish. The duty on Welsh Ministers under the Sea
Fisheries (Wildlife Conservation) Act 1992 to have regard to the
conservation of marine flora and fauna in discharging functions under
sea fisheries legislation will also be extended to cover the whole of
the zone. While most functions are being transferred entirely to the
Welsh Ministers, in cases where a function is at present exercisable by
them concurrently with UK Ministers in the territorial sea, it will
also be exercisable on a concurrent basis in the rest of the Welsh
zone.
These
concurrent functions are listed in article 5, and include further
functions under the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967 in relation to the
licensing of fishing vessels. The concurrent nature of the UK licensing
functions is central to the principles of a single UK fishing licence.
Also included are powers under the Sea Fisheries Act 1968 to
regulate the conduct of sea fishing operations so far as they relate to
the identification and marking of fishing boats and, finally, functions
under the British Fishing Boats Act 1983 relating to the qualification
for British fishing boats to be used in fishing, transhipment and
landing of sea fish.
I will now
turn briefly to the policy underpinning this order. The Welsh
Ministers overriding policy aim, as set out in the accompanying
explanatory memorandum, is the creation of viable and sustainable
fisheries in the waters around Wales, as described in the Wales
fisheries strategy. The creation of the zone will simplify the
jurisdiction, better reflect practical realities and enable the more
coherent management of fisheries off the Welsh coast. The vast majority
of the Welsh fishing fleet operate within the zone, and its creation
would put Wales on a similar footing to the other devolved
Administrations, each of which already has a fisheries zone.
I draw hon.
Members attention to the fact that Parliament has already
agreed the principle of the Welsh zone by virtue of its inclusion in
the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. This order simply gives the
zone practical effect.
Finally, a
further effect of establishing the zone is to define the boundaries of
the Welsh offshore region, one of the eight marine planning regions in
UK waters created by the 2009 Act. The Act provides for the Welsh
Ministers to be the marine plan authorities for both the Welsh offshore
and inshore regions, and to prepare marine plans for these regions. The
Welsh offshore region would not be defined in the absence of this
order.
This draft
order has already been approved by the Welsh Ministers and by Grand
Committee in the other place, and I commend it to the
House.
2.38
pm
Mr.
David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): May I say what a great
pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon,
Mr. Jones? As we have heard from the Minister, the purpose
of the order is to transfer functions to the Welsh Ministers and to
amend the Government of Wales Act 2006 by inserting a definition of the
Welsh zone into section 158(1). The order has been awaited for some
time since the enactment of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 and
it defines the Welsh zone by reference to the boundaries that are set
out in article 3 and are very conveniently reproduced in
graphical form in the map that has been provided for us
today.
I
understand that there has been some delay in determining the extent of
the Welsh and other zones because of negotiations that were proceeding
with the Scottish and Northern Irish Administrations. The practical
consequence of the order, as we have heard, is to secure that functions
currently exercisable by a Minister of the Crown in relation to the
Welsh zone will in future be exercisable by the Welsh Ministers, so far
as those referred to in article 4(1)(a) are concerned. Those
essentially relate to sea fisheries. So far as article 5 is concerned,
other functions will be concurrently exercisable by a Minister of the
Crown and the Welsh Ministers. These essentially relate to the
licensing of fishing boats and the description of the qualifications
for British fishing boats.
There are one
or two matters about which I would appreciate the Ministers
assistance this afternoon. First, could he tell us what consultation is
expected between Ministers of the Crown and the Welsh Ministers about
the functions that are concurrently exercisable and how those
concurrent functions will be exercised in practice? Secondly, article 6
provides:
Any
provision of section 4 or 4A of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967
requiring the consent of the Treasury to the exercise of a function
does not apply in relation to the exercise of the function by the Welsh
Ministers.
Could the Minister
please say why that is the case?
Thirdly,
article 8 provides that the provisions of paragraph 1(1) of
schedule 4 to the Government of Wales Act, relating to the transfer of
property and so on, do not apply to documentary or electronic records
to which a Minister of the Crown is entitled in connection with any
function exercisable by that Minister and transferred by this order.
What arrangements, if any, will be put in place for access by Welsh
Ministers to those records?
Finally, and
most importantly, the explanatory memorandum makes it clear that the
administrative burden for the Welsh zone will transfer from the
Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to the Welsh
Assembly Government, but there will be no budgetary transfer from the
United Kingdom Government to the Welsh Assembly Government in
connection with this order. I should have thought that the
administrative burden associated with the transfer of functions would
be considerable. What assessment has been made of the financial impact
on the Welsh Assembly Government of the transfer of functions to be
effected by the order? What assurances can the Minister give the
Committee that the Welsh Assembly Government have adequate resources to
discharge the functions transferred to them out of their existing
budget?
In
summary, the order simply perfects the provisions of the Marine and
Coastal Access Act 2009 relating to the establishment of the Welsh zone
and, further to those observations, I have nothing to
add.
2.42
pm
Chris
Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Could the Minister tell us
whether this transfer order allows us to change the names of the
waterway between Wales and Ireland? Currently it is the St.
Georges channel. Could it become the St. Davids channel
or the St. Patricks channel, or even the St. David and St.
Patricks
channel?
2.43
pm
Mark
Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve
under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr. Jones. I have a
few brief remarks in support of this order. It specifies the boundaries
of the Welsh zone and brings all remaining functions to do with
fishing, fisheries and fish health under the control of Welsh
Ministers. In the spirit of devolution, if nothing else, that is a
welcome measure. As part of the Marine and Coastal Access
Act 2009, the Assembly Government wanted to bring fisheries
functions in-house under the control of the relevant Welsh Minister,
hence the establishment of the Welsh zone under the
Act.
The
Minister went to great lengths to explain the boundaries of the Welsh
zone. I did not see the map and I got a bit lost as he was exploring
the coast of
Wales.
Chris
Ruane: You were all at
sea.
Mark
Williams: Indeed. It is a good map and this is a welcome
extension of the zone. The Minister was kind enough to come to
Aberystwyth to talk to a meeting of people concerned about the
re-emergence of industrial scallop dredging in Cardigan bay, so he will
appreciate that the picture is very complex. Before the order came into
being, five bodies dealt with such matters: the Welsh Assembly
Government, the Marine Fisheries Agency, two local government sea
fisheries committees and the Environment Agency. Now, we have a
simplified process and that is
welcome.
The
explanatory memorandum says that the Welsh Assembly Government are
confident that the creation of the Welsh zone will not weaken the
UKs position in EU fisheries matters. We very much agree with
that. What procedures for cross-governmental working have been set up
to ensure that the Welsh voice is heard strongly at a European level?
Is the Minister satisfied that all functions relating to fisheries have
now been transferred?
We welcome the
transfer of powers over fisheries to the Welsh Assembly Government, and
this order puts in place the necessary framework. The Minister was
right to stress the need for the development of a sustainable fisheries
policy. The debate in Cardigan bay has been a scary one, given the
re-emergence of the industrial scallop dredgers, which have been a real
threat to what is left of the fishing industry there. The Assembly has
a good fisheries strategy, and these procedural points and the new
organisational arrangements will mean that we can move forward in a
positive way with public confidence and, in particular, with the
confidence of the small fishing fleet around the coast of
Wales.
2.45
pm
Mr.
Tom Watson (West Bromwich, East) (Lab): The Minister has
given a clear explanation of what the instrument can do; I should like
to thank him for that. One thing that concerns me is the name:
Welsh zone strikes me as Soviet. I do not think the
Minister has gone far enough. Wales needs its own sea and I ask him to
consider renaming the Welsh zone the Wales
sea.
2.46
pm
Mr.
Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): What a very
good
idea.
Chris
Ruane: Youre sorry you didnt think of it
first.
It is an
unbridled pleasure to serve under your very able chairmanship once
again, Mr. Jones. In opening what I anticipate will be a
short debate, the Minister eloquently described the boundaries of the
area we are concerned with. Such eloquence I have seldom come across in
this place. If he had waved the map around he could saved himself a lot
of time. The point is that it is quite clear and it is definite for all
to see. As others have said, it is a consequence of the recent
legislation.
I
should like to make two small points. As the hon. Member for Ceredigion
said, there will be enforcement regarding large industrial scallop
dredging, which is long overdue. In previous discussions on this
matter, my comments have been misconstrued as giving the impression
that I am against sustainable fishing, particularly scallop fishing. As
a conspicuous and regular consumer of sustainable scallops, I could
hardly stand up and say that I am against the whole idea. Clearly, it
is an important business and an important element of fisheryfor
the Ceredigion bay it is extremely importantso I welcome this
development. I place on the record once more that I am 100 per cent. in
favour of sustainable scallop fishing. That means outlawing the large
dredgers that come in and decimate parts of the bay, leaving them in
that condition for 10 or 12 years to come and weakening the ecology of
the whole bay.
Paragraph 8.3
of the explanatory memorandum
states:
The
Welsh Assembly Government also does not intend to redirect any
resources away from the management of inshore fisheries due to the
creation of the Welsh
zone.
One
hopes there will be full understanding between our friends in the Isle
of Man and England about enforcement, because these large vessels can
scarper very quickly. I hope there will be sufficient vessels within
the Welsh
zone, but also that we actively encourage participation and
understanding between those who represent the English zone and the Isle
of Man area. So there is that job of work to be done if this measure is
to work properly in the way that we all want, in order to enhance the
coast, sea fisheries and wildlife.
It is not a
contentious matter, and I just have those few remarks to
make.
2.49
pm
Mr.
David: It has been a short, but interesting debate. I
thank members of the Committee for their contributions and questions,
and I shall try to respond at least to most of the issues that have
been raised. The hon. Member for Clwyd, West asked about consultation.
There has been significant, comprehensive consultation with
Departments, the Welsh Assembly Government and bodies outside, and that
has led to what is before us today. The hon. Gentleman referred
specifically to Treasury consent, and said that article 6 provided that
Treasury consent or approval requirements will cease. That is because
Welsh Ministers issue licences to fishing boats for the trans-shipment
of fish under sections 4 and 4A of Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967.
Welsh Ministers exercise such functions within the boundary of the
territorial sea and the order ensures that the functions will be
exercisable in the same way throughout the whole Welsh
zone.
Records
are not being transferred, but arrangements for Wales, and for
Ministers to have access to records are being put in place. I assure
the Committee that administrative arrangements are already in place to
ensure that what is needed to enable the Welsh Assembly Government to
have access to necessary records as well as for the purposes of
disclosure of any court proceedings will be included. Such issues have
already been given due
consideration.
The
Welsh Assembly Government have considered whether they have sufficient
resources to administer their new responsibilities, and we have been
informed that the changes will not result in an extra administrative
burden. In effect, the zone will be cost neutral and should not
displace resources currently used to manage the inshore region. I wish
to reinforce my point about consultation. That has taken place between
Ministers of the Crown and Welsh Ministers, and naturally an ongoing
dialogue is taking place. There is a genuine consensus about the way
forward.
Mr.
Jones: I am grateful to the Minister. He will recall that
I referred to how, in practice, the concurrent exercise of functions
between Ministers of the Crown and Welsh Ministers would operate. In
other words, who will be responsible for what? If the exercises take
place concurrently, how will that be achieved in
practice?
Mr.
David: The essential thrust of what we have before us is
devolving responsibility to the Welsh Assembly Government. It will be a
continuing shift in emphasis. There will also be partnership. The
functions that are to be exercised concurrently will be done jointly on
the basis of agreement between the Welsh Assembly Government and
central Government. The arrangements have already been discussed, and
it is simply a matter of implementing them.
The hon.
Member for Ceredigion, as well as the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant
Conwy, drew attention to scallop dredging. As they said, it is an
important issue. I visited Ceredigion and met several parties with
different views about the matter. It is fair to say that, on 8 February
2010, Elin Jones, realising the seriousness of the issue, introduced
the Scallop Fishing (Wales) (No. 2) Order 2010, which is due
to come into force in time for the opening of the scallop fisheries
season on 1 March. That, in itself, is an explicit recognition of the
seriousness of the
situation.
Mark
Williams: I should place on record my support for Miss
Elin Joness decision. She shares my constituency, and the moves
that she took are welcome. The beauty of what we have before us is that
her remit is that much greater. There has been concern about the
enforcement and who has responsibility for enforcement within the 12
miles or beyond the 12
miles.
Mr.
David: Indeed; I was about to come to that point. The
order prohibits scallop dredging in areas deemed environmentally
sensitiveincluding parts of Cardigan bay about which the hon.
Gentleman is concernedin advance of further studies being
undertaken. It also places further technical restrictions on the type
of vessel and the gear used for scallop dredging. What we have before
us addresses many of his concerns.
Concern was
expressed about whether there would be engagement at European level.
Relations with the European Union are a reserved matter; nevertheless,
over the past few years we have seen greater involvement by the Welsh
Assembly Government in the formal discussions and negotiations at a
European level. That is already happening on fisheries, and I believe
it will continue. The Welsh interest will be taken fully into account,
albeit indirectly, at a European
level.
Finally,
there were a couple of references to the descriptions used. As my name
is David, of course I would be pleased, as my hon. Friend the Member
for Vale of Clwyd suggested, if St. Georges channel were
renamed St. Davids channel. Unfortunately, I think that that is
beyond the order before us.
I am slightly
concerned about the belief of my hon. Friend the Member for West
Bromwich, East that the Government are using Soviet-style terminology.
If that is the case, I can assure him it is unintentional. There will
be an ongoing discussion about description and nomenclature, and the
hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy will ensure that the issue does
not slip off the agenda
entirely.
Question
put and agreed to.
2.56
pm
Committee
rose.