The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Chairman:
Mr.
George Howarth
Carswell,
Mr. Douglas
(Harwich)
(Con)
Challen,
Colin
(Morley and Rothwell)
(Lab)
Cruddas,
Jon
(Dagenham) (Lab)
Donohoe,
Mr. Brian H.
(Central Ayrshire)
(Lab)
Gray,
Mr. James
(North Wiltshire)
(Con)
Grogan,
Mr. John
(Selby)
(Lab)
Hammond,
Stephen
(Wimbledon)
(Con)
Hemming,
John
(Birmingham, Yardley)
(LD)
Hesford,
Stephen
(Wirral, West)
(Lab)
Khan,
Mr. Sadiq
(Minister of State, Department for
Transport)Leech,
Mr. John
(Manchester, Withington)
(LD)
Malins,
Mr. Humfrey
(Woking)
(Con)
Murphy,
Mr. Denis
(Wansbeck)
(Lab)
Singh,
Mr. Marsha
(Bradford, West)
(Lab)
Tami,
Mark
(Alyn and Deeside)
(Lab)
Wilson,
Mr. Rob
(Reading, East)
(Con)
Chris Stanton, Committee
Clerk
attended the
Committee
Second
Delegated Legislation
Committee
Monday
1 February
2010
[Mr.
George Howarth in the
Chair]
Draft
Passengers Council (Non-Railway Functions) Order
2010
4.30
pm
The
Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr. Sadiq
Khan): I beg to
move,
That
the Committee has considered the draft Passengers Council
(Non-Railway Functions) Order
2010.
It
is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time,
Mr. Howarth. My hon. Friends and I welcome you, as I am sure
do all hon. Members on the other
side.
This
draft order is needed to extend the statutory remit of the Rail
Passengers Councilthe rail passenger watchdog commonly known as
Passenger Focusto bus, coach and tram issues. It is subject to
parliamentary approval under the affirmative procedure in accordance
with sections 19A(8) and 56(4) of the Railways Act 2005. The
hon. Member for Wimbledon has spent a considerable part of his
parliamentary career deliberating about the Local Transport Act 2008,
and he is therefore familiar with the subject under discussion. I will
keep my opening remarks brief and I hope that they will deal with any
concerns that he might have. I will also be happy to respond to any
questions that he asks me during the
debate.
In
England, some 4.7 billion bus passenger journeys are taken each year.
However, bus passengers, unlike rail passengers, do not have a
statutory watchdog. The Government introduced the 2008 Act to help
deliver better bus services. Responses to the consultation on the draft
Bill showed wide support for a publicly recognised body to represent
the interests of bus passengers and provide them with a visible and
influential
voice.
We
consulted on the proposals on two occasions. The first consultation
took place in 2007 and a further full consultation was carried out in
2009 on the detail of the draft order under consideration today and on
whether Passenger Focus should represent tram passengers as well. The
consultation paper was published on the Department for Transport
website and our proposals were well received. Support for giving
Passenger Focus a bus and coach remit was reaffirmed, and there was a
clear view that it should also represent tram
passengers.
The
draft order will impose a duty on Passenger Focus to investigate
certain matters relating to the provision of road passenger transport
services or facilities in England; they can be referred by passengers,
passenger representative bodies or the Secretary of State. Passenger
Focus will also be required to keep under review matters affecting the
interests of the public in relation to road passenger transport
services and facilities. It could also investigate matters at its own
volition.
Passenger
Focus will not consider matters already dealt with by the London
transport users committee, which is commonly known as London
TravelWatch.
However, some respondents to the consultation said that there were
issues relating to London TravelWatch. Consequently, we have amended
the draft order to make it clearer that Passenger Focus will not deal
with matters relating solely to services or facilities that are
provided, procured or authorised by Transport for London. Passenger
Focus may, however, consider such matters as part of a wider
investigation into services elsewhere in England. For example, some TfL
services operate across the London boundary into towns such as
Dartford. If Passenger Focus were to investigate bus services in
Dartford, it would be important for it to be able to take those
cross-border services into account. The draft order provides for that,
and a similar process applies to coach services as
well.
We
expect Passenger Focus to work collaboratively with stakeholders.
However, there may be times when a service or facility provider might
be unwilling to co-operate for one reason or another. The draft order
will enable Passenger Focus to request information when carrying out an
investigation. That was strongly supported by respondents to the
consultation.
4.34
pm
Sitting
suspended for a Division in the
House.
4.49
pm
On
resuming
Mr.
Khan: Before the Division, I was explaining to hon.
Members the ability of Passenger Focus to request information. If
Passenger Focus were not satisfied with the response, it could refer a
bus or coach operator to a traffic commissioner and a tram operator to
the scheme promoter.
Mr.
Humfrey Malins (Woking) (Con): Will the Minister help me?
I am a bit confused. The explanatory memorandum
says:
This
instrument applies to Great Britain but has effect only in
England.
It
is probably my fault, but I do not understand what that
means.
Mr.
Khan: Passenger Focus deals with railway issues in Great
Britain, but buses, trams and coaches in England; there are several
bodies that deal with buses, trams and coaches in Scotland, Wales and
Northern Ireland. That is a very important issue. Passenger Focus has
confirmed that it will work with those bodies in other
jurisdictions.
John
Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): That has confused me
now. If Passenger Focus applies only to Great Britain, it would not
apply to Northern Ireland, because the United Kingdom includes Northern
Ireland, and Great Britain is the big island. Are we saying that
Passenger Focus covers the UK or Great
Britain?
Mr.
Khan: The Passenger Focus that deals with buses, coaches
and trams covers only England. The Passenger Focus that deals with rail
covers Great Britain, not the United
Kingdom.
John
Hemming: So it does not deal with Northern
Ireland.
Mr.
Khan: It does not deal with Northern
Ireland.
Mr.
Howarth, following an investigation, Passenger Focus would be able to
make representations to organisations that may have had an impact on
the quality of the service. Those include the providers of services and
facilities, local traffic and transport authorities, and the Highways
Agency. I emphasise again that we would expect Passenger Focus to work
collaboratively with stakeholders. However, there may be occasions when
that cannot achieve a satisfactory outcome, and we believe that it is
important that Passenger Focus should be able to refer a matter to
another body with powers to take action when that is the
case.
The draft
order would enable Passenger Focus, in certain circumstances, to refer
a matter involving a bus or coach operator to a traffic commissioner.
However, it will remain entirely up to the traffic commissioner to
decide whether to exercise any powers in
response.
Mr.
James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I see from paragraph
7.7 of the helpful explanatory notes that information provided by the
traffic commissioners to the body may require the body to hold board
meetings in private on some occasions. In this era of open government,
will the Minister tell us what sort of information provided by the
Secretary of State or by the transport commissioners might be so
important and secret as to require the body to hold its meeting in
private?
Mr.
Khan: An example would be when there are commercial
sensitivities. If a complaint has been made about the running of
company A, one could understand why company A would be happy to release
the information to a traffic commissioner, but be concerned about its
getting into rival company Bs hands; company B might be
operating a bus service in the same town. From his interest in freedom
of information issues, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the
presumption will clearly be on the party seeking not to have the
meeting in public. It will have to explain why the meeting should be
kept private. We would hope that transparency would prevail. Passenger
Focuss record in relation to rail has been promising; there has
not been the sort of concern that the hon. Gentleman has
raised.
In
relation to the actions of a local traffic authority, Passenger Focus
will be able to refer the matter to a traffic commissioner or to the
Secretary of State, if it thinks it may be appropriate for him to
exercise his intervention powers under the Traffic Management
Act 2004.
Colleagues
will be aware of the current process of bus and tram passenger
complaints appeals. Although the draft order does not prescribe how
complaints appeals should be handled, we know that the issue is
important for some stakeholders. We had not intended Passenger Focus to
deal with bus complaints appeals, as the Bus Appeals Body already does
that.
To confirm
what role Passenger Focus should have in dealing with complaints, we
asked it to review the current complaints system and it submitted the
results as part of its consultation response. Although it was concerned
that the Bus Appeals Body does not consider complaints about commercial
matters, it found no
conclusive evidence that it was not effective. Having considered its
findings carefully, alongside the comments made by other stakeholders,
I have accepted Passenger Focuss suggestion that it should work
with the industry, Bus Users UK and the Bus Appeals Body to address any
shortcomings.
The
draft order will also make a number of minor changes to the
constitution of Passenger Focus. It changes the statutory title from
the Rail Passengers Council to the Passengers Council to reflect the
wider remit, although it will continue to use its operating name,
Passenger Focus, in its day-to-day
activities.
Mr.
Howarth, I have gone through the draft order and, I hope, dealt with
some of the issues that colleagues may have. I am happy to deal with
any other points when winding up. I commend the order to the
Committee.
4.54
pm
Stephen
Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): The order will enshrine in law
one of the least controversial aspects of the Local Transport Act 2008,
which, when a Bill, was the subject of considerable focus in this room
only two years ago. I am thinking of the provision to give bus, tram
and coach passengers a statutory watchdog, and to give that role to
what is currently known as Passenger Focus. The Minister was not in the
Department when we debated the Local Transport Bill, but I can tell him
that we had some lively discussions and sparring with his predecessor
about many of its aspects. There were certainly occasions when she was
being pulled one way by her Back Benchers and another by the
Opposition. It is not surprising that she has moved to the easier
climes of the Department for Work and Pensions.
However, we
moved very swiftly on the clauses connected with this order. They made
sense to almost all parties and, unlike several other elements of the
Bill, they were not controversial. Although the Minister is right to
make the point that rail passengers seem to complain the most, many
more people use local buses every day. In that regard, it is widely
accepted that bus passengers need a body to act as a watchdog, to stand
up for them and to lobby the industry on their behalf. Passenger Focus
plays that role for rail passengers, to widespread acclaim; people are
confident that it is impartial, factual and fair. It seems logical that
it should also take responsibility for passengers who take buses,
coaches and
trams.
I
want to pick up on several points, and it would be helpful if the
Minister clarified them. First, when the body known now as Passenger
Focus looks at the railway industry, it produces rather large, useful
bodies of national statistics. Clearly, that process will not be
appropriate for the bus passenger experience because there is much more
of a patchwork of local services. From his consultation with Passenger
Focus, is the Minister satisfied that the methodological differences
between the approaches to rail and bus travel are sufficient to cope
with the differences between how the two services are
provided?
Secondly, the
Minister spoke at some length about the referrals to traffic
commissioners. I note from the explanatory notes that such referrals
are clearly a possibility. Does he feel that the explanatory notes go
far enough when they say that such referrals could be made
when
it was
appropriate to do so?
That
is a wide phrase and I wonder whether any guidance will be given on
exactly what it means; it might mean one thing to one person and
something entirely different to someone else. It could be used in a
difficult way. Some people might choose not to take things forward and
others might choose to do so the whole time. Has any further thought
been given to what the phrase might
mean?