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Session 2009 - 10
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Delegated Legislation Committee Debates



The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chairman: Mr. George Howarth
Carswell, Mr. Douglas (Harwich) (Con)
Challen, Colin (Morley and Rothwell) (Lab)
Cruddas, Jon (Dagenham) (Lab)
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
Gray, Mr. James (North Wiltshire) (Con)
Grogan, Mr. John (Selby) (Lab)
Hammond, Stephen (Wimbledon) (Con)
Hemming, John (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)
Hesford, Stephen (Wirral, West) (Lab)
Khan, Mr. Sadiq (Minister of State, Department for Transport)
Leech, Mr. John (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
Malins, Mr. Humfrey (Woking) (Con)
Murphy, Mr. Denis (Wansbeck) (Lab)
Singh, Mr. Marsha (Bradford, West) (Lab)
Tami, Mark (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
Wilson, Mr. Rob (Reading, East) (Con)
Chris Stanton, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee

Second Delegated Legislation Committee

Monday 1 February 2010

[Mr. George Howarth in the Chair]

Draft Passengers’ Council (Non-Railway Functions) Order 2010
4.30 pm
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr. Sadiq Khan): I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Passengers’ Council (Non-Railway Functions) Order 2010.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr. Howarth. My hon. Friends and I welcome you, as I am sure do all hon. Members on the other side.
This draft order is needed to extend the statutory remit of the Rail Passengers Council—the rail passenger watchdog commonly known as Passenger Focus—to bus, coach and tram issues. It is subject to parliamentary approval under the affirmative procedure in accordance with sections 19A(8) and 56(4) of the Railways Act 2005. The hon. Member for Wimbledon has spent a considerable part of his parliamentary career deliberating about the Local Transport Act 2008, and he is therefore familiar with the subject under discussion. I will keep my opening remarks brief and I hope that they will deal with any concerns that he might have. I will also be happy to respond to any questions that he asks me during the debate.
In England, some 4.7 billion bus passenger journeys are taken each year. However, bus passengers, unlike rail passengers, do not have a statutory watchdog. The Government introduced the 2008 Act to help deliver better bus services. Responses to the consultation on the draft Bill showed wide support for a publicly recognised body to represent the interests of bus passengers and provide them with a visible and influential voice.
We consulted on the proposals on two occasions. The first consultation took place in 2007 and a further full consultation was carried out in 2009 on the detail of the draft order under consideration today and on whether Passenger Focus should represent tram passengers as well. The consultation paper was published on the Department for Transport website and our proposals were well received. Support for giving Passenger Focus a bus and coach remit was reaffirmed, and there was a clear view that it should also represent tram passengers.
The draft order will impose a duty on Passenger Focus to investigate certain matters relating to the provision of road passenger transport services or facilities in England; they can be referred by passengers, passenger representative bodies or the Secretary of State. Passenger Focus will also be required to keep under review matters affecting the interests of the public in relation to road passenger transport services and facilities. It could also investigate matters at its own volition.
We expect Passenger Focus to work collaboratively with stakeholders. However, there may be times when a service or facility provider might be unwilling to co-operate for one reason or another. The draft order will enable Passenger Focus to request information when carrying out an investigation. That was strongly supported by respondents to the consultation.
4.34 pm
Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.
4.49 pm
On resuming—
Mr. Khan: Before the Division, I was explaining to hon. Members the ability of Passenger Focus to request information. If Passenger Focus were not satisfied with the response, it could refer a bus or coach operator to a traffic commissioner and a tram operator to the scheme promoter.
Mr. Humfrey Malins (Woking) (Con): Will the Minister help me? I am a bit confused. The explanatory memorandum says:
“This instrument applies to Great Britain but has effect only in England.”
It is probably my fault, but I do not understand what that means.
Mr. Khan: Passenger Focus deals with railway issues in Great Britain, but buses, trams and coaches in England; there are several bodies that deal with buses, trams and coaches in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. That is a very important issue. Passenger Focus has confirmed that it will work with those bodies in other jurisdictions.
John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): That has confused me now. If Passenger Focus applies only to Great Britain, it would not apply to Northern Ireland, because the United Kingdom includes Northern Ireland, and Great Britain is the big island. Are we saying that Passenger Focus covers the UK or Great Britain?
Mr. Khan: The Passenger Focus that deals with buses, coaches and trams covers only England. The Passenger Focus that deals with rail covers Great Britain, not the United Kingdom.
John Hemming: So it does not deal with Northern Ireland.
Mr. Khan: It does not deal with Northern Ireland.
Mr. Howarth, following an investigation, Passenger Focus would be able to make representations to organisations that may have had an impact on the quality of the service. Those include the providers of services and facilities, local traffic and transport authorities, and the Highways Agency. I emphasise again that we would expect Passenger Focus to work collaboratively with stakeholders. However, there may be occasions when that cannot achieve a satisfactory outcome, and we believe that it is important that Passenger Focus should be able to refer a matter to another body with powers to take action when that is the case.
The draft order would enable Passenger Focus, in certain circumstances, to refer a matter involving a bus or coach operator to a traffic commissioner. However, it will remain entirely up to the traffic commissioner to decide whether to exercise any powers in response.
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I see from paragraph 7.7 of the helpful explanatory notes that information provided by the traffic commissioners to the body may require the body to hold board meetings in private on some occasions. In this era of open government, will the Minister tell us what sort of information provided by the Secretary of State or by the transport commissioners might be so important and secret as to require the body to hold its meeting in private?
Mr. Khan: An example would be when there are commercial sensitivities. If a complaint has been made about the running of company A, one could understand why company A would be happy to release the information to a traffic commissioner, but be concerned about its getting into rival company B’s hands; company B might be operating a bus service in the same town. From his interest in freedom of information issues, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the presumption will clearly be on the party seeking not to have the meeting in public. It will have to explain why the meeting should be kept private. We would hope that transparency would prevail. Passenger Focus’s record in relation to rail has been promising; there has not been the sort of concern that the hon. Gentleman has raised.
In relation to the actions of a local traffic authority, Passenger Focus will be able to refer the matter to a traffic commissioner or to the Secretary of State, if it thinks it may be appropriate for him to exercise his intervention powers under the Traffic Management Act 2004.
Colleagues will be aware of the current process of bus and tram passenger complaints appeals. Although the draft order does not prescribe how complaints appeals should be handled, we know that the issue is important for some stakeholders. We had not intended Passenger Focus to deal with bus complaints appeals, as the Bus Appeals Body already does that.
To confirm what role Passenger Focus should have in dealing with complaints, we asked it to review the current complaints system and it submitted the results as part of its consultation response. Although it was concerned that the Bus Appeals Body does not consider complaints about commercial matters, it found no conclusive evidence that it was not effective. Having considered its findings carefully, alongside the comments made by other stakeholders, I have accepted Passenger Focus’s suggestion that it should work with the industry, Bus Users UK and the Bus Appeals Body to address any shortcomings.
The draft order will also make a number of minor changes to the constitution of Passenger Focus. It changes the statutory title from the Rail Passengers Council to the Passengers Council to reflect the wider remit, although it will continue to use its operating name, Passenger Focus, in its day-to-day activities.
Mr. Howarth, I have gone through the draft order and, I hope, dealt with some of the issues that colleagues may have. I am happy to deal with any other points when winding up. I commend the order to the Committee.
4.54 pm
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): The order will enshrine in law one of the least controversial aspects of the Local Transport Act 2008, which, when a Bill, was the subject of considerable focus in this room only two years ago. I am thinking of the provision to give bus, tram and coach passengers a statutory watchdog, and to give that role to what is currently known as Passenger Focus. The Minister was not in the Department when we debated the Local Transport Bill, but I can tell him that we had some lively discussions and sparring with his predecessor about many of its aspects. There were certainly occasions when she was being pulled one way by her Back Benchers and another by the Opposition. It is not surprising that she has moved to the easier climes of the Department for Work and Pensions.
However, we moved very swiftly on the clauses connected with this order. They made sense to almost all parties and, unlike several other elements of the Bill, they were not controversial. Although the Minister is right to make the point that rail passengers seem to complain the most, many more people use local buses every day. In that regard, it is widely accepted that bus passengers need a body to act as a watchdog, to stand up for them and to lobby the industry on their behalf. Passenger Focus plays that role for rail passengers, to widespread acclaim; people are confident that it is impartial, factual and fair. It seems logical that it should also take responsibility for passengers who take buses, coaches and trams.
I want to pick up on several points, and it would be helpful if the Minister clarified them. First, when the body known now as Passenger Focus looks at the railway industry, it produces rather large, useful bodies of national statistics. Clearly, that process will not be appropriate for the bus passenger experience because there is much more of a patchwork of local services. From his consultation with Passenger Focus, is the Minister satisfied that the methodological differences between the approaches to rail and bus travel are sufficient to cope with the differences between how the two services are provided?
Secondly, the Minister spoke at some length about the referrals to traffic commissioners. I note from the explanatory notes that such referrals are clearly a possibility. Does he feel that the explanatory notes go far enough when they say that such referrals could be made when
“it was appropriate to do so”?
That is a wide phrase and I wonder whether any guidance will be given on exactly what it means; it might mean one thing to one person and something entirely different to someone else. It could be used in a difficult way. Some people might choose not to take things forward and others might choose to do so the whole time. Has any further thought been given to what the phrase might mean?
 
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