The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Chairman:
Sir
Nicholas Winterton
Bailey,
Mr. Adrian
(West Bromwich, West)
(Lab/Co-op)
Barron,
Mr. Kevin
(Rother Valley)
(Lab)
Creagh,
Mary
(Wakefield)
(Lab)
Davies,
Philip
(Shipley)
(Con)
Dobson,
Frank
(Holborn and St. Pancras)
(Lab)
Lamb,
Norman
(North Norfolk)
(LD)
Merron,
Gillian
(Minister of State, Department of
Health)
Moffatt,
Laura
(Crawley)
(Lab)
Naysmith,
Dr. Doug
(Bristol, North-West)
(Lab/Co-op)
Penning,
Mike
(Hemel Hempstead)
(Con)
Pritchard,
Mark
(The Wrekin)
(Con)
Pugh,
Dr. John
(Southport)
(LD)
Turner,
Mr. Andrew
(Isle of Wight)
(Con)
Waltho,
Lynda
(Stourbridge)
(Lab)
Wicks,
Malcolm
(Croydon, North)
(Lab)
Wright,
Jeremy
(Rugby and Kenilworth)
(Con)
Simon Patrick, Committee
Clerk
attended the
Committee
Second
Delegated Legislation
Committee
Monday
8 March
2010
[Sir
Nicholas Winterton in the
Chair]
Draft
Protection from Tobacco (Sales from Vending Machines)
(England) Regulations
2010
4.30
pm
The
Minister of State, Department of Health (Gillian Merron):
I beg to
move,
That
the Committee has considered the draft Protection from Tobacco (Sales
from Vending Machines) (England) Regulations
2010.
The
Chair: With this it will be convenient to consider the
draft Tobacco Advertising and Promotion (Display of Prices) (England)
Regulations
2010.
Gillian
Merron: May I say, Sir Nicholas, what a pleasure it is to
serve under your chairmanship again this
afternoon?
The
instruments meet our commitment to regulate both tobacco displays and
the sale of tobacco from vending machines, and they follow the will of
Parliament in that regard. Four sets of regulations were required to
implement the new provisions under the Health Act 2009, two of which
are before us today, and two of which were made and laid under the
negative resolution procedure on 2 March 2010. A public consultation on
all four sets of proposed regulations ran until 4 January 2010. The
Governments response to and report on the
consultations were published on the Department of Healths
website on 26 February. All responses were considered carefully, and
they informed the drafting of the final regulations. We have also
considered all available legal
options.
The
first set of regulations deals with tobacco vending machines.
Regulation 1 specifies the timing and title of the regulations.
Regulation 2 prohibits the sale of tobacco from an automatic machine.
It specifies that the person who controls or manages the premises where
the automatic machine is located shall be liable and also defines what
is meant by premises. We have carefully considered the impact on
businesses and have taken into account consultation responses from
them. The regulations do not commence until 1 October 2011, thus giving
businesses time to prepareincluding by diversifying into
selling different non-tobacco products from vending machines, if they
so
wish.
The
regulations give us the power to sever one of the main supply lines by
which tobacco reaches children. Studies show that, in 2008, 12 per
cent. of regular smokers aged 11 to 15 used vending machines as a
regular source of cigarettes. Evidence from local trading standards
officers shows that more than half of test purchases during 2008-09
resulted in a sale to a child. They also found that one in four vending
machines were not located in a supervised area. The evidence is clear.
The voluntary code of practice to prevent children from buying tobacco
from vending machines is still not working effectively. It remains an
inadequate safeguard against under-age sales and undermines efforts by
adults to
quit.
Mike
Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): I am interested in the
sudden conversion and the fact that such evidence is here. It was not
available when the Health Bill was discussed in Committee, when I
pressed for a debate in which we could push for others ways to preclude
young people from obtaining tobacco from vending machines. The Minister
said nothing at the time. Nothing at all was said until we considered
the Bill on Report, when an amendment was taken at 8 oclock in
the evening and we voted on it less than 40 minutes later. From where
has the evidence suddenly come? Why did the Government not bring this
forward when we discussed the Health Bill in
Committee?
Gillian
Merron: I hope that the Committee is glad that the
Government took the temperature of the House and allowed its will to be
tested. Its will was clear, and we listened to it and acted. Members of
the Committee will have their own views about whether that was the
right thing to do, but Parliament made clear what it wanted from the
Bill, so we have pursued that
course.
Mike
Penning: The Minister refers to the will of the House. The
Conservatives and most Opposition Members had a free vote that evening.
Will the Government allow their Members a free vote in Committee
today?
Gillian
Merron: The will of the Government is clear, which is to
support young children and to support those who want to quit smoking.
In all such things, voting is a matter for the Whips. The hon.
Gentleman
[Interruption.]
The
Chair: Order. The Minister is on her feet and addressing
the
Committee.
Gillian
Merron: The hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead will certainly
find unanimity among Labour Members, and it will be interesting to see
whether Opposition Members will act to protect young people from taking
up smoking and to support those who wish to quittime will
tell.
Halting
the damage caused by smoking means tackling desirability as well as
availability. The second set of regulations, on price lists, is one
part of the package of regulations flowing from the prohibition of
tobacco displays under new section 7A of the Tobacco Advertising and
Promotion Act 2002. The regulations cover the display of tobacco prices
on shelves and storage units and the two types of price list that may
be displayed or given to customers when they ask for more information.
Retailers must, of course, be able to continue selling tobacco
products. Customers must, of course, be able to see which products are
for sale and at what price. The labels on storage units also help staff
to know where different products are, if they are stored in covered
shelving.
Regulation
1 provides for the regulations to come into effect on 1 October 2011
for large shops, and 1 October 2013 for small shops. Shops
are defined as large or small in line with provisions in the Sunday
Trading Act 1994. That approach is supported by the Association of
Convenience Stores and local authorities. It gives a clear and
straightforward definition that is already understood by retailers and
easy to
enforce.
Regulations
2, 3 and 4 provide for definitions and set out how the other
regulations apply. Regulation 5 applies to all tobacco price lists and
price labels, setting out permitted wording and specifying the typeface
and style of type that must be
used.
Regulation
6 sets out the maximum size, permitted title and generic sub-headings
of prices lists that may be displayed. It sets out the maximum height
of the wording, specifies that there must be no border or frame and
limits the number of price lists to one for each area where tobacco
products are located and paid
for.
Regulation
7 applies, with regulation 5, to price lists available only on
requestincluding pictures of the products. The aim is to ensure
that customers who, for whatever reason, cannot read English are able
to identify the brand they want by recognising its picture. The list
will show pictures of branded products, so they can be shown to adults
only on request. The regulation sets out the maximum size of pictures
and of wording, and limits the number of each price list to one for
each area where tobacco products are located and paid
for.
Regulation
8 applies to labels on storage unitsany shelf, gantry, cabinet
or unit where tobacco products are kept pending sale. The regulation
specifies the maximum size of the label and of the wording on it. As a
result of the consultation, the limit on the size of the wording has
been increased from 3 mm to 4 mm, which is in line with the guidance of
the Royal National Institute of Blind People, from which we were keen
to receive
representations.
Regulation
9 provides for specialist and bulk tobacconists to be exempt from the
regulations for price lists and labels inside their shops or tobacco
areas. They are, however, allowed a single price list on show to the
public outside the shop or tobacco area provided that it is consistent
with the price lists that other retailers are allowed to showin
other words, that it complies with the limitations set out in
regulations 5 and
6.
Mike
Penning: I am listening carefully to the Minister. She is
saying that, in non-tobacconists, pictures of the product with prices
will be available on request for visually impaired people but, in a
tobacconists, such people will not know what the prices are
because there will not be any pictures of the
product.
Gillian
Merron: Perhaps I can clarify the situation for the
benefit of the Committee. There will be written prices. However, anyone
who cannot, for whatever reason, read English will be able to ask for
pictures of the products. We want to assist retailers and we also wish
to assist consumers to make their choice, as is right and proper. We
have listened carefully to the RNIB and what it believes is the correct
sizing. We are trying to achieve regulations that will work. We
listened carefully in the consultation. If the hon. Gentleman and
others look at the responses to the consultation, they will see how we
amended what we originally proposed so that the provisions would be
workable and could be
supported.
We
worked closely with stakeholders during the drafting of the regulations
to ensure that they were effective and practical, and to minimise the
requirements on businesses.
The regulations allow prices to be displayed in a number of different
waysin separate lists or as labels attached to shelving. The
regulations were also the subject of a public consultation. All
responses were considered during the drafting of the final regulations.
Some responses argued that the regulations should go further in
tightening tobacco control, while others suggested that the proposals
went too
far.
In
some instances, as I have said, suggested changes have been made where
the Government believed that they would strengthen the effectiveness of
the regulations and ensure that they were practical for retailers. For
example, the size of the price list allowed was increased, since the
initial size would have made it difficult to display all tobacco
products available for sale. We believe that the final regulations that
we are bringing forward strike the right balance between protecting
public health and recognising the needs of businesses, while respecting
the will of the House. We believe that the regulations are practical
and effective, and I commend them to the
Committee.
The
Chair: I remind the Committee that because both
instruments are being taken together, the debate can continue for one
and a half hours, so we can go on until 6 pm, having started at 4.30
pm.
4.42
pm
Mike
Penning: It is a pleasure, Sir Nicholas, to be
representing Her Majestys Opposition under your chairmanship
this afternoon. I am deeply disappointed by several aspects of the
regulations brought forward this afternoon. We have a completely free
voteto which I alluded earlierso it will be up to my
colleagues to decide how they vote, should we have a Division later,
which we almost certainly
will.
It
is a shame that the Government have loaded their Benches. I am
astonished to see the Chair of the Health Committeethe right
hon. Member for Rother Valleyon a Statutory Instrument
Committee. His is an excellent Committee, which has taken a lot of
evidenceI was a member of that Committeeand produced an
excellent report. I would have thought that the Government would allow
their Back Benchers to have a view this evening, without loading the
Committee in such an obvious way.
Mr.
Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): Will the hon.
Gentleman give way?
Mr.
Barron: Why will the hon. Gentleman not give
way?
Mike
Penning: I do not want to; there we
are.
The
Chair: Order. The hon. Gentleman is not giving way. He has
the right to make that
decision.
Mike
Penning: Thank you, Sir Nicholas. I may give way later if
I make some
progress.
The
legislation will have a huge effect on retailers and law-abiding people
conducting the trade of selling tobacco, which, as I understand it, is
still legal in this country, under certain regulations that I fully
accept should be in place. I stand here not as someone who
opposes the
Governments legislationas the Committee knows, I was a
signatory to the amendment that created the ban on smoking in public
places. It was not a selective ban, as first proposed by the
Government, but a full ban. My decision was based on the evidence put
before the Health Committee.
The evidence
for the first statutory instrument worries me. The explanatory
memorandum lists policy optionsoptions that the Government
could have chosen. Option 1 is Retain the status
quo. I do not think that anyone accepts that the status quo
would be right, and yet option 2 is Prohibit the sale.
That goes from the sublime to the
ridiculous.
Many
different methods could be used to prohibit young people getting
cigarettes from vending machines, without banning the machines
completely. I was in Manchester earlier this year, and stayed with a
hotel group called Jurys Inn. People could access cigarettes from the
vending machines there only if the barman had checked their
agein my case he obviously checked carefully that I was over
18. An infrared signal was then sent to the machine, and the product
vended. It was impossible for a person under the age of 18, unless they
were using a fake ID, to access the product. That is the sort of thing
we would expect in a tobacconists. It is the sort of
thing that adults in a grown-up society, who wish to purchase expensive
products such as cigarettes from vending machines, should have the
opportunity to
do.
Malcolm
Wicks (Croydon, North) (Lab): How does the hon.
Gentlemans experience of Jurys Inn, where the barmanor
barwoman, I guesschecks the age, relate to overwhelming
evidence that every day of the week barmen and women sell alcohol to
people who are under
age?