Session 2009-10
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Delegated Legislation Committee Debates

Draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Transport) Order 2010



The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chair: Mr. Bill Olner 

Ainsworth, Mr. Peter (East Surrey) (Con) 

Cox, Mr. Geoffrey (Torridge and West Devon) (Con) 

David, Mr. Wayne (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales)  

Fabricant, Michael (Lichfield) (Con) 

Havard, Mr. Dai (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab) 

Jones, Mr. David (Clwyd, West) (Con) 

Levitt, Tom (High Peak) (Lab) 

McDonagh, Siobhain (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab) 

Michael, Alun (Cardiff, South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op) 

Morden, Jessica (Newport, East) (Lab) 

Owen, Albert (Ynys Môn) (Lab) 

Tami, Mark (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab) 

Timpson, Mr. Edward (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con) 

Touhig, Mr. Don (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op) 

Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon) (PC) 

Williams, Mark (Ceredigion) (LD) 

Anne-Marie Griffiths, Alison Groves, Committee Clerks

† attended the Committee

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Sixth Delegated Legislation Committee 

Tuesday 30 March 2010  

[Mr. Bill Olner in the Chair] 

Draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Transport) Order 2010 

9.45 am 

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wayne David):  I beg to move, 

That the Committee has considered the Draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Transport) Order 2010. 

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Olner. The legislative competence order was approved by the National Assembly on 2 March. It was announced last July by the then First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, as part of the Welsh Assembly Government’s third legislative programme. It does two things. First, it devolves legislative competence to the Assembly on concessionary travel. Secondly, it broadens the Assembly’s existing competence in relation to learner transport. 

I shall deal first with concessionary travel. The concessionary travel scheme in Wales provides free travel on local bus services for the disabled, their companions and those aged over 60. A rail pilot scheme is also in operation on certain lines. The LCO inserts a Matter into field 10—the highways and transport field of schedule 5 of the Government of Wales Act 2006—to allow the Assembly to legislate on concessionary travel on bus services in Wales, and on rail services provided under a franchise agreement, to which Welsh Ministers are a party. Those rail services are currently operated in Wales under the Arriva Trains Wales franchise. 

Under current arrangements, Welsh local authorities negotiate directly with bus operators the amount of reimbursement due as a result of the scheme. The amounts are then paid by the Welsh Assembly Government. The Assembly Government believe that that arrangement does not build in sufficient incentives to control costs. Competence would allow the Assembly to legislate to exercise more rigorous controls over the scheme, thereby safeguarding its longer-term viability. It could, for example, allow the Assembly Government to administer the scheme directly; enable Welsh Ministers to negotiate reimbursement directly with operators, or amend all or part of the legislative framework for the scheme as a whole, including the process for appeals. 

The LCO allows the Assembly to legislate on the kinds of vehicles used by local authorities to provide learner transport and the safety and security features that they should have. For example, local authorities could be required to use only vehicles that have certain characteristics, such as single-deck vehicles fitted with seat belts and CCTV. There is cross-party support for the proposal in the Assembly, following consultation on and scrutiny of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. The proposal supports Welsh Ministers’ policy objective to reduce car use to and from school by

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improving the security, comfort, convenience and safety of school buses, and hence their attractiveness to learners. 

The Assembly already has competence over most aspects of learner travel, subject to several general, or floating, exceptions in part 2 of schedule 5 of GOWA. They include an exception relating to the regulation of the use and construction of motor vehicles on roads and the conditions under which they may be used, and an exception for transport security. Both exceptions constrain the Assembly’s ability to legislate about the equipment in vehicles used for learner transport, and the security of those travelling in such vehicles. 

The LCO removes some of the restrictions, but only in relation to vehicles used for learner transport. In other words, some of the restrictions placed on the Assembly’s existing competence are eased by redefining the boundary of the exception. It is important to be clear, however, that the LCO does not devolve competence in relation to the technical standards of vehicles, which apply throughout Great Britain and will continue to be determined by the UK Government, often within the framework of European law. 

Pre-legislative scrutiny of the LCO was carried out by the Welsh Affairs Committee, the Constitution Committee in the other place and a Committee of the Assembly. The Welsh Affairs Committee recommended that the explanatory memorandum be amended to specify how the use of the term “bus services” in the LCO relates to its use in other transport legislation. Paragraph 7.10 of the explanatory memorandum has been amended to make clear that the term is compatible with that used in the Transport Act 2000. It potentially encompasses all bus services in Wales and is widely drafted to enable the Assembly to differentiate between services, or to specify particular services, such as community transport or long-distance coach services, in legislation. 

This is the last LCO from the Assembly Government’s current legislative programme to be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny. I thank the Welsh Affairs Committee for the excellent quality of its scrutiny and its constructive recommendations about this and all other LCOs. The Committee has played an invaluable role in the process of devolving legislative competence to the Assembly. I am particularly grateful to the Constitution Committee of the other place—which concluded that this LCO did not raise any issues of constitutional principle—and to the Committee of the Assembly.

I hope hon. Members will agree that it is appropriate that these powers on concessionary travel and learner transport are devolved to the National Assembly, to allow the Assembly Government to implement their policies. I commend the order to the Committee. 

9.51 am 

Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD):  Thank you, Mr. Olner. You took me by surprise. 

The Chair:  I saw Members standing at your end of the room, not the other. 

Mark Williams:  It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, and, in an unexpected elevation, to respond to the Minister. I apologise for missing the first couple of seconds of his speech this morning. 

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It is a pleasure to speak on this important transport LCO. As the Minister has described, it provides powers in two distinct areas—learner transport safety and concessionary travel—which I hope are relatively uncontroversial. The Assembly has already introduced legislation on learner travel and concessionary bus fares and this will add to the flexibility with which it can apply the rules. The current LCO does not cover the description of vehicles, meaning that the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 could not cover things such as seat belts and CCTV. This corrects that important omission. 

It became apparent when the learner travel Measure was proposed that there were gaps in the Assembly Government’s legislative competence. Without straying into the kind of Measures that the National Assembly may wish to introduce, evidence to the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs referred to future Measures that could stipulate that all vehicles contracted to transport learners could be single-deck, equipped with seat belts and, where appropriate, CCTV. The Assembly could also introduce a statutory requirement for all vehicles transporting learners to carry a supervisory adult to deter or penalise disruptive behaviour that might compromise the safety of learners. In a previous life, I was a teacher and many of the themes of loading up young people on to buses around rural Powys resonated very strongly. We look forward to the Measures that the National Assembly may introduce. 

It is a matter of concern that the required powers are being granted now and that it could not have been done earlier. The order is very much in the spirit of the devolutionary settlement and I have no doubt that it should be accepted. I am also pleased that the definition of bus services has been clarified through the explanatory memorandum, and that the Deputy First Minister confirmed that he has no plans to reduce the availability of the service. It is sensible that we enable the Assembly Government to take a coherent approach to concessionary travel. In that context, I am happy to support not just the spirit of the order, but the practicalities that will come forth with the new Measure. 

9.54 am 

Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con):  May I say how pleased I am to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr. Olner? 

I will deal with the provisions of the draft LCO in the opposite order from the Minister. It seeks to confer legislative competence on the Assembly in the field of transport by inserting matters relating to school transport and concessionary bus and rail travel in schedule 5 of the Government of Wales Act 2006. There has been considerable pressure in south Wales in particular for improvements to safety standards on school buses, since the death over seven years ago of Stuart Cunningham-Jones in the Vale of Glamorgan. Safety standards on school buses should be the highest possible and, if legislation comes forward in Wales that achieves that, it will certainly be welcomed by all. Indeed, this cannot be said to be a Wales-only issue, and it would be even more welcome if the Government pursued the issues raised by this LCO on an England and Wales basis. 

Clearly, there will be some impact on the providers of school transport and, although no consultation has

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taken place before the LCO, extensive consultation will have to take place with transport providers before any Measure is produced pursuant to the competence transferred. I am grateful to note the Minister’s assurance that the LCO will not impact in any way on the construction and use regulations. 

On concessionary transport, the explanatory memorandum indicates that the competence is sought to enable the Assembly to legislate to exercise more rigorous control of the scheme; for example, by allowing the Assembly Government to negotiate directly for the reimbursement of operating costs with operators and to administer the scheme directly, rather than through local authorities. The memorandum points out that the current mechanism of reimbursing operators via local authorities fails to build in sufficient incentives to control costs, since local authorities are reimbursed by the Assembly Government for the full cost concerned. Clearly, that must be a significant problem if the Assembly Government are seeking legislative competence to address it. Will the Minister give any indication of the extent to which the Assembly Government consider that local authorities are not sufficiently controlling costs at the moment? It is unfortunate that the Assembly Government seem to consider that the only solution to the problem is to centralise control. 

Paragraph 7.8 of the explanatory memorandum points out that there is currently a potential conflict of interest. Under the current range of Executive powers, Welsh Ministers act as the agents of local authorities and may negotiate reimbursement directly with local bus operators. However, Welsh Ministers are the appeal authority in cases of dispute. Will the Minister say what is envisaged to replace that procedure? Will there, for example, be a separate appeals panel independent of Welsh Ministers? 

The memorandum also indicates that the Assembly’s competence over concessionary travel will be limited because competence over rail travel is restricted to Welsh services provided under a franchise agreement to which the Welsh Ministers are a party—to all intents and purposes, Arriva Trains Wales. Will the Minister say whether there is any possibility of extending the scheme to non-franchise companies in Wales, for example, Virgin Trains, First Great Western and CrossCountry? If concessionary travel is confined to Arriva Trains Wales, is there a possibility that those services will be heavily overused? Indeed, as an user of Arriva Trains Wales from time to time, I know that overcrowding is a frequent problem. 

Finally, may I gently grumble about the errors in the explanatory memorandum? Paragraphs 7.4 and 7.8 are incomplete. I would not normally moan, but they are clearly important and I would love to know how they end. Subject to that, I have no further observations to make. 

9.58 am 

Hywel Williams (Caernarfon) (PC):  It is a pleasure to be here this morning, Mr. Olner. May I begin by thanking the Minister for his kind words about the work of the Welsh Affairs Committee, of which I am a member? There are other members here today, who I am sure are equally appreciative. The work of the Committee on LCOs has always been interesting and sometimes challenging. I hope that we have been thorough in our work and acted expeditiously. 

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I welcome the debate on this LCO and I hope that it has good speed and is passed. Concessionary bus travel has been a great boon to many people in Wales, particularly in rural areas such as the one I represent. There are some points about concessionary bus travel that are slightly broader than the LCO. I will not go into them now, but just refer to them in passing. One issue that has arisen several times is the mutual acceptance of concessionary bus travel on either side of the border. I hope that those of us who are fortunate enough to return after the general election can revert to that. 

Although the concessionary travel scheme has been a great boon, I welcome the possibility of looking at costs. Talking to bus operators in my constituency, there is a certain amount of—let me put it this way—potential leeway for mistakes on the actual cost of travel, in that it depends on reporting by the bus companies and by the bus drivers. I have discussed that with bus companies and, without straying into Measures that the Assembly might propose, I hope to see the introduction of a smart card system. That would be a great help in controlling the costs. This is slightly off the point too, but I also hope to see moves towards talking buses in Wales, which would be a further great boon for people who are older or disabled, particularly those with sight problems. I hope that that is on the horizon. 

I have just a couple more points. As far as I understand it, mainline services are not the responsibility of the Assembly. That matter was discussed in the Welsh Affairs Committee when we considered the Transport Bill some time ago and it might go some way towards explaining why Arriva is named in the order. Perhaps the Minister can explain when he responds. I would like concessionary travel to be available on all kinds of services in Wales and across the border, which is why I referred earlier to the mutual acceptability of concessionary travel cards on both sides of the border. 

I want to raise one other matter, which again is slightly off the point. I am sure that the Committee agrees that more training on disability awareness needs to be instituted for transport staff. That was pointed out to me in preparation for this debate. With that, I am pleased to wish the order good speed. 

10.1 am 

Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con):  I rise briefly to make a couple of points. I know mid Wales very well indeed. I am also very familiar with the problems and travails of Arriva Trains Wales as it works on the single track from Birmingham New Street station to Aberystwyth. My remarks will take the form of a suggestion and a question for the Minister about school transport. In Staffordshire, it has been decided that, funds allowing, all the school buses will be painted yellow, not to show solidarity with our friends across the Atlantic but for visibility and recognisability. Given that in Ceredigion, Gwynedd and parts of Snowdonia the roads are very narrow and curving, visibility is all important. Does the LCO give competence to the Welsh Assembly to order if it so wishes that school buses be painted yellow and so on so that they are more recognisable than an ordinary Arriva bus in Wales? In making such suggestions, we recognise that boom has turned to bust, despite the fact that it was said that that could not possibly happen. 

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The Chair:  Order. Although I have given the hon. Gentleman a little leeway, he is straying far from the order. 

Michael Fabricant:  Far be it from me to disagree with you, Mr. Olner, but given that there were questions about whether seat belts and various other facilities could be made available and were within the competence of the order, I think it is fair to ask whether it is within the order’s competence that buses be painted yellow. With that remark I will sit down and not test your patience or be out of order by speaking in my very poor Welsh. 

10.4 am 

Mr. David:  I thank Members for their comments, which have been generally supportive and recognise the LCO’s worth. Let me begin at the beginning, as someone once said. I am pleased that the hon. Member for Ceredigion made his comments. In a sense the LCO does, as he says, fill the gaps in current legislation and empower the Assembly accordingly. On the time scale, the LCO has been the subject of detailed consultation with Departments, particularly the Department for Transport. It is important that we spend a bit of time making sure that we get the pre-legislative scrutiny right so that we have the most effective LCO. 

The hon. Member for Clwyd, West correctly pointed to Stuart’s Campaign from 2002. I am pleased that that campaign was headed by a schoolmaster who teaches in my constituency, although he lives in the Vale of Glamorgan. That had a big impact on popular consciousness and the Assembly’s desire to introduce the legislation. 

The hon. Gentleman asked some specific questions and I will do my best to answer each of them. On disputes, there will be a mechanism for an independent dispute procedure—something we would all welcome. On non-franchised trains, the LCO refers specifically to Arriva Trains Wales because the Assembly is party to the agreement which is in place, and would not extend to other companies that do not have similar arrangements. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman: he identified mistakes in the explanatory memorandum and I am sure that they will be put right following our deliberations. 

I was pleased to hear the comments of the hon. Member for Caernarfon and I welcome his support. I can confirm that it is the position of both the Assembly Government and the UK Government eventually to have harmonisation and synchronisation of various concessionary schemes. Of course, there are practical impediments to that, not least in England. The travel concessionary schemes are different in different parts of England. Nevertheless, we want as much free movement as possible for everybody to benefit as far as they can from the concessions that exist. 

Finally, I welcome the contribution of the hon. Member for Lichfield and his support for this LCO. My answer to his question is simply yes. The LCO will allow, for example, different paints to be used on school buses because that would add to the safety of the pupils being transported to school, which is our objective. 

I am pleased with the support from the Committee. Again, as the hon. Member for Caernarfon said, I express my appreciation to the Welsh Affairs Committee

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for its work. As I suspect that this might be my last opportunity to speak in Committee before an event that is due to take place in a few weeks’ time, I thank hon. Members for their work today and on previous occasions. 

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Question put and agreed to.  

10.8 am 

Committee rose.  


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Prepared 12:33 on 31st March 2010