The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Chair:
Mr.
Bill Olner
†
Ainsworth,
Mr. Peter (East Surrey)
(Con)
†
Cox,
Mr. Geoffrey (Torridge and West Devon)
(Con)
†
David,
Mr. Wayne (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Wales)
†
Fabricant,
Michael (Lichfield)
(Con)
Havard,
Mr. Dai (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)
(Lab)
†
Jones,
Mr. David (Clwyd, West)
(Con)
†
Levitt,
Tom (High Peak)
(Lab)
McDonagh,
Siobhain (Mitcham and Morden)
(Lab)
†
Michael,
Alun (Cardiff, South and Penarth)
(Lab/Co-op)
†
Morden,
Jessica (Newport, East)
(Lab)
†
Owen,
Albert (Ynys Môn)
(Lab)
†
Tami,
Mark (Alyn and Deeside)
(Lab)
†
Timpson,
Mr. Edward (Crewe and Nantwich)
(Con)
Touhig,
Mr. Don (Islwyn)
(Lab/Co-op)
†
Williams,
Hywel (Caernarfon)
(PC)
†
Williams,
Mark (Ceredigion)
(LD)
Anne-Marie Griffiths, Alison
Groves, Committee Clerks
†
attended the Committee
Sixth
Delegated Legislation
Committee
Tuesday
30 March
2010
[Mr.
Bill Olner
in the
Chair]
Draft
National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Transport) Order
2010
9.45
am
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wayne
David):
I beg to
move,
That
the Committee has considered the Draft National Assembly for Wales
(Legislative Competence) (Transport) Order
2010.
It
is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Olner.
The legislative competence order was approved by the National Assembly
on 2 March. It was announced last July by the then First Minister,
Rhodri Morgan, as part of the Welsh Assembly Government’s third
legislative programme. It does two things. First, it devolves
legislative competence to the Assembly on concessionary travel.
Secondly, it broadens the Assembly’s existing competence in
relation to learner
transport.
I
shall deal first with concessionary travel. The concessionary travel
scheme in Wales provides free travel on local bus services for the
disabled, their companions and those aged over 60. A rail pilot scheme
is also in operation on certain lines. The LCO inserts a Matter into
field 10—the highways and transport field of schedule
5 of the Government of Wales Act 2006—to allow the Assembly to
legislate on concessionary travel on bus services in Wales, and on rail
services provided under a franchise agreement, to which Welsh Ministers
are a party. Those rail services are currently operated in Wales under
the Arriva Trains Wales
franchise.
Under
current arrangements, Welsh local authorities negotiate directly with
bus operators the amount of reimbursement due as a result of the
scheme. The amounts are then paid by the Welsh Assembly Government. The
Assembly Government believe that that arrangement does not build in
sufficient incentives to control costs. Competence would allow the
Assembly to legislate to exercise more rigorous controls over the
scheme, thereby safeguarding its longer-term viability. It could, for
example, allow the Assembly Government to administer the scheme
directly; enable Welsh Ministers to negotiate reimbursement directly
with operators, or amend all or part of the legislative framework for
the scheme as a whole, including the process for
appeals.
The
LCO allows the Assembly to legislate on the kinds of vehicles used by
local authorities to provide learner transport and the safety and
security features that they should have. For example, local authorities
could be required to use only vehicles that have certain
characteristics, such as single-deck vehicles fitted with seat belts
and CCTV. There is cross-party support for the proposal in the
Assembly, following consultation on and scrutiny of the Learner Travel
(Wales) Measure 2008. The proposal supports Welsh Ministers’
policy objective to reduce car use to and from school by
improving the security, comfort, convenience and safety of school buses,
and hence their attractiveness to
learners.
The
Assembly already has competence over most aspects of learner travel,
subject to several general, or floating, exceptions in part 2 of
schedule 5 of GOWA. They include an exception relating to the
regulation of the use and construction of motor vehicles on roads and
the conditions under which they may be used, and an exception for
transport security. Both exceptions constrain the Assembly’s
ability to legislate about the equipment in vehicles used for learner
transport, and the security of those travelling in such
vehicles.
The
LCO removes some of the restrictions, but only in relation to vehicles
used for learner transport. In other words, some of the restrictions
placed on the Assembly’s existing competence are eased by
redefining the boundary of the exception. It is important to be clear,
however, that the LCO does not devolve competence in relation to the
technical standards of vehicles, which apply throughout Great Britain
and will continue to be determined by the UK Government, often within
the framework of European
law.
Pre-legislative
scrutiny of the LCO was carried out by the Welsh Affairs Committee, the
Constitution Committee in the other place and a Committee of the
Assembly. The Welsh Affairs Committee recommended that the explanatory
memorandum be amended to specify how the use of the term “bus
services” in the LCO relates to its use in other transport
legislation. Paragraph 7.10 of the explanatory memorandum
has been amended to make clear that the term is compatible with that
used in the Transport Act 2000. It potentially encompasses all bus
services in Wales and is widely drafted to enable the Assembly to
differentiate between services, or to specify particular services, such
as community transport or long-distance coach services, in
legislation.
This
is the last LCO from the Assembly Government’s current
legislative programme to be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny. I
thank the Welsh Affairs Committee for the excellent quality of its
scrutiny and its constructive recommendations about this and all other
LCOs. The Committee has played an invaluable role in the process of
devolving legislative competence to the Assembly. I am particularly
grateful to the Constitution Committee of the other place—which
concluded that this LCO did not raise any issues of constitutional
principle—and to the Committee of the
Assembly.
I
hope hon. Members will agree that it is appropriate that these powers
on concessionary travel and learner transport are devolved to the
National Assembly, to allow the Assembly Government to implement their
policies. I commend the order to the
Committee.
9.51
am
Mark
Williams (Ceredigion) (LD):
Thank you, Mr.
Olner. You took me by surprise.
The
Chair:
I saw Members standing at your end of the room, not
the
other.
Mark
Williams:
It is a pleasure to serve under your
chairmanship, and, in an unexpected elevation, to respond to the
Minister. I apologise for missing the first couple of seconds of his
speech this morning.
It is a
pleasure to speak on this important transport LCO. As the Minister has
described, it provides powers in two distinct areas—learner
transport safety and concessionary travel—which I hope are
relatively uncontroversial. The Assembly has already introduced
legislation on learner travel and concessionary bus fares and this will
add to the flexibility with which it can apply the rules. The current
LCO does not cover the description of vehicles, meaning that the
Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 could not cover things such as seat
belts and CCTV. This corrects that important omission.
It became
apparent when the learner travel Measure was proposed that there were
gaps in the Assembly Government’s legislative competence.
Without straying into the kind of Measures that the National Assembly
may wish to introduce, evidence to the Select Committee on Welsh
Affairs referred to future Measures that could stipulate that all
vehicles contracted to transport learners could be single-deck,
equipped with seat belts and, where appropriate, CCTV. The Assembly
could also introduce a statutory requirement for all vehicles
transporting learners to carry a supervisory adult to deter or penalise
disruptive behaviour that might compromise the safety of learners. In a
previous life, I was a teacher and many of the themes of loading up
young people on to buses around rural Powys resonated very strongly. We
look forward to the Measures that the National Assembly may
introduce.
It
is a matter of concern that the required powers are being granted now
and that it could not have been done earlier. The order is very much in
the spirit of the devolutionary settlement and I have no doubt that it
should be accepted. I am also pleased that the definition of bus
services has been clarified through the explanatory memorandum, and
that the Deputy First Minister confirmed that he has no plans to reduce
the availability of the service. It is sensible that we enable the
Assembly Government to take a coherent approach to concessionary
travel. In that context, I am happy to support not just the spirit of
the order, but the practicalities that will come forth with the new
Measure.
9.54
am
Mr.
David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con):
May I say how pleased I
am to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr.
Olner?
I will deal
with the provisions of the draft LCO in the opposite order from the
Minister. It seeks to confer legislative competence on the Assembly in
the field of transport by inserting matters relating to school
transport and concessionary bus and rail travel in schedule 5 of the
Government of Wales Act 2006. There has been considerable pressure in
south Wales in particular for improvements to safety standards on
school buses, since the death over seven years ago of Stuart
Cunningham-Jones in the Vale of Glamorgan. Safety standards on school
buses should be the highest possible and, if legislation comes forward
in Wales that achieves that, it will certainly be welcomed by all.
Indeed, this cannot be said to be a Wales-only issue, and it would be
even more welcome if the Government pursued the issues raised by this
LCO on an England and Wales
basis.
Clearly,
there will be some impact on the providers of school transport and,
although no consultation has
taken place before the LCO, extensive consultation will have to take
place with transport providers before any Measure is produced pursuant
to the competence transferred. I am grateful to note the
Minister’s assurance that the LCO will not impact in any way on
the construction and use
regulations.
On
concessionary transport, the explanatory memorandum indicates that the
competence is sought to enable the Assembly to legislate to exercise
more rigorous control of the scheme; for example, by allowing the
Assembly Government to negotiate directly for the reimbursement of
operating costs with operators and to administer the scheme directly,
rather than through local authorities. The memorandum points out that
the current mechanism of reimbursing operators via local authorities
fails to build in sufficient incentives to control costs, since local
authorities are reimbursed by the Assembly Government for the full cost
concerned. Clearly, that must be a significant problem if the Assembly
Government are seeking legislative competence to address it. Will the
Minister give any indication of the extent to which the Assembly
Government consider that local authorities are not sufficiently
controlling costs at the moment? It is unfortunate that the Assembly
Government seem to consider that the only solution to the problem is to
centralise
control.
Paragraph
7.8 of the explanatory memorandum points out that there is currently a
potential conflict of interest. Under the current range of Executive
powers, Welsh Ministers act as the agents of local authorities and may
negotiate reimbursement directly with local bus operators. However,
Welsh Ministers are the appeal authority in cases of dispute. Will the
Minister say what is envisaged to replace that procedure? Will there,
for example, be a separate appeals panel independent of Welsh
Ministers?
The
memorandum also indicates that the Assembly’s competence over
concessionary travel will be limited because competence over rail
travel is restricted to Welsh services provided under a franchise
agreement to which the Welsh Ministers are a party—to all
intents and purposes, Arriva Trains Wales. Will the Minister say
whether there is any possibility of extending the scheme to
non-franchise companies in Wales, for example, Virgin Trains, First
Great Western and CrossCountry? If concessionary travel is confined to
Arriva Trains Wales, is there a possibility that those services will be
heavily overused? Indeed, as an user of Arriva Trains Wales from time
to time, I know that overcrowding is a frequent
problem.
Finally,
may I gently grumble about the errors in the explanatory memorandum?
Paragraphs 7.4 and 7.8 are incomplete. I would not normally moan, but
they are clearly important and I would love to know how they end.
Subject to that, I have no further observations to
make.
9.58
am
Hywel
Williams (Caernarfon) (PC):
It is a pleasure to be here
this morning, Mr. Olner. May I begin by thanking the
Minister for his kind words about the work of the Welsh Affairs
Committee, of which I am a member? There are other members here today,
who I am sure are equally appreciative. The work of the Committee on
LCOs has always been interesting and sometimes challenging. I hope that
we have been thorough in our work and acted expeditiously.
I welcome the
debate on this LCO and I hope that it has good speed and is passed.
Concessionary bus travel has been a great boon to many people in Wales,
particularly in rural areas such as the one I represent. There are some
points about concessionary bus travel that are slightly broader than
the LCO. I will not go into them now, but just refer to them in
passing. One issue that has arisen several times is the mutual
acceptance of concessionary bus travel on either side of the border. I
hope that those of us who are fortunate enough to return after the
general election can revert to that.
Although the
concessionary travel scheme has been a great boon, I welcome the
possibility of looking at costs. Talking to bus operators in my
constituency, there is a certain amount of—let me put it this
way—potential leeway for mistakes on the actual cost of travel,
in that it depends on reporting by the bus companies and by the bus
drivers. I have discussed that with bus companies and, without straying
into Measures that the Assembly might propose, I hope to see the
introduction of a smart card system. That would be a great help in
controlling the costs. This is slightly off the point too, but I also
hope to see moves towards talking buses in Wales, which would be a
further great boon for people who are older or disabled, particularly
those with sight problems. I hope that that is on the
horizon.
I
have just a couple more points. As far as I understand it, mainline
services are not the responsibility of the Assembly. That matter was
discussed in the Welsh Affairs Committee when we considered the
Transport Bill some time ago and it might go some way towards
explaining why Arriva is named in the order. Perhaps the Minister can
explain when he responds. I would like concessionary travel to be
available on all kinds of services in Wales and across the border,
which is why I referred earlier to the mutual acceptability of
concessionary travel cards on both sides of the border.
I want to
raise one other matter, which again is slightly off the point. I am
sure that the Committee agrees that more training on disability
awareness needs to be instituted for transport staff. That was pointed
out to me in preparation for this debate. With that, I am pleased to
wish the order good
speed.
10.1
am
Michael
Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con):
I rise briefly to make a
couple of points. I know mid Wales very well indeed. I am also very
familiar with the problems and travails of Arriva Trains Wales as it
works on the single track from Birmingham New Street station to
Aberystwyth. My remarks will take the form of a suggestion and a
question for the Minister about school transport. In Staffordshire, it
has been decided that, funds allowing, all the school buses will be
painted yellow, not to show solidarity with our friends across the
Atlantic but for visibility and recognisability. Given that in
Ceredigion, Gwynedd and parts of Snowdonia the roads are very narrow
and curving, visibility is all important. Does the LCO give competence
to the Welsh Assembly to order if it so wishes that school buses be
painted yellow and so on so that they are more recognisable than an
ordinary Arriva bus in Wales? In making such suggestions, we recognise
that boom has turned to bust, despite the fact that it was said that
that could not possibly happen.
The
Chair:
Order. Although I have given the hon. Gentleman a
little leeway, he is straying far from the
order.
Michael
Fabricant:
Far be it from me to disagree with you,
Mr. Olner, but given that there were questions about whether
seat belts and various other facilities could be made available and
were within the competence of the order, I think it is fair to ask
whether it is within the order’s competence that buses be
painted yellow. With that remark I will sit down and not test your
patience or be out of order by speaking in my very poor
Welsh.
10.4
am
Mr.
David:
I thank Members for their comments, which have been
generally supportive and recognise the LCO’s worth. Let me begin
at the beginning, as someone once said. I am pleased that the hon.
Member for Ceredigion made his comments. In a sense the LCO does, as he
says, fill the gaps in current legislation and empower the Assembly
accordingly. On the time scale, the LCO has been the subject of
detailed consultation with Departments, particularly the Department for
Transport. It is important that we spend a bit of time making sure that
we get the pre-legislative scrutiny right so that we have the most
effective
LCO.
The
hon. Member for Clwyd, West correctly pointed to Stuart’s
Campaign from 2002. I am pleased that that campaign was headed by a
schoolmaster who teaches in my constituency, although he lives in the
Vale of Glamorgan. That had a big impact on popular consciousness and
the Assembly’s desire to introduce the legislation.
The hon.
Gentleman asked some specific questions and I will do my best to answer
each of them. On disputes, there will be a mechanism for an independent
dispute procedure—something we would all welcome. On
non-franchised trains, the LCO refers specifically to Arriva Trains
Wales because the Assembly is party to the agreement which is in place,
and would not extend to other companies that do not have similar
arrangements. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman: he identified mistakes
in the explanatory memorandum and I am sure that they will be put right
following our
deliberations.
I
was pleased to hear the comments of the hon. Member for Caernarfon and
I welcome his support. I can confirm that it is the position of both
the Assembly Government and the UK Government eventually to have
harmonisation and synchronisation of various concessionary schemes. Of
course, there are practical impediments to that, not least in England.
The travel concessionary schemes are different in different parts of
England. Nevertheless, we want as much free movement as possible for
everybody to benefit as far as they can from the concessions that
exist.
Finally,
I welcome the contribution of the hon. Member for Lichfield and his
support for this LCO. My answer to his question is simply yes. The LCO
will allow, for example, different paints to be used on school buses
because that would add to the safety of the pupils being transported to
school, which is our objective.
I am pleased
with the support from the Committee. Again, as the hon. Member for
Caernarfon said, I express my appreciation to the Welsh Affairs
Committee
for its work. As I suspect that this might be my last opportunity to
speak in Committee before an event that is due to take place in a few
weeks’ time, I thank hon. Members for their work today and on
previous occasions.
Question
put and agreed
to.
10.8
am
Committee
rose.