The
Committee consisted of the following
Members:
Ainger,
Nick
(Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire)
(Lab)
David,
Mr. Wayne
(Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
Wales)
Dunne,
Mr. Philip
(Ludlow)
(Con)
Flynn,
Paul
(Newport, West)
(Lab)
Havard,
Mr. Dai
(Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)
(Lab)
Jones,
Mr. David
(Clwyd, West)
(Con)
Kirkbride,
Miss Julie
(Bromsgrove)
(Con)
Leigh,
Mr. Edward
(Gainsborough)
(Con)
Michael,
Alun
(Cardiff, South and Penarth)
(Lab/Co-op)
Morden,
Jessica
(Newport, East)
(Lab)
Prosser,
Gwyn
(Dover)
(Lab)
Stanley,
Sir John
(Tonbridge and Malling)
(Con)
Tami,
Mark
(Alyn and Deeside)
(Lab)
Williams,
Mrs. Betty
(Conwy)
(Lab)
Williams,
Hywel
(Caernarfon)
(PC)
Williams,
Mark
(Ceredigion)
(LD)
Georgina Holmes-Skelton,
Committee Clerk
attended
the Committee
The following also attended,
pursuant to Standing Order No.
118(2):
Ruane,
Chris
(Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
Seventh
Delegated Legislation
Committee
Tuesday 16
March
2010
[Miss
Anne Begg in the
Chair]
Draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing) (Fire Safety) Order 2010
4.30
pm
The
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wayne
David): I beg to
move,
That
the Committee has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales
(Legislative Competence) (Housing) (Fire Safety) Order
2010.
It
is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Miss
Begg.
This
legislative competence order has already been approved by the National
Assembly for Wales. It was introduced by Ann Jones, the Assembly Member
for the Vale of Clwyd, and is the second LCO introduced by a Back-Bench
Member of the National Assembly to come before this House. The Welsh
Assembly Government support the
order.
I
strongly support the ability of Assembly Members to introduce proposals
for LCOs. It demonstrates the flexibility and versatility of the system
for conferring legislative competence on the National Assembly and
enables individual Assembly Members to participate directly in
enhancing that
competence.
The
order has benefited from pre-legislative scrutiny by our Welsh Affairs
Committee, the Constitution Committee in the other place and a
Committee of the National Assembly for Wales. I am grateful to the
Committees for the work that they have undertaken, and I shall return
in a moment to the minor changes that have been made following
scrutiny.
Turning
to content, the draft LCO inserts a single matter into field 11, which
is on housing, in part 1 of schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act
2006. It will enable the National Assembly to legislate on the
provision of automatic fire repression systems, such as fire
sprinklers, in new residential premises. The LCO sets out that
new residential premises means premises constructed
for, or converted to, residential use. An Assembly Measure could not
require the retrospective fitting of fire sprinklers to existing
residential
properties.
This
is a narrowly defined order with a clear purpose. Ann Jones has said
from the outset that the purpose of the LCO is to allow the Assembly to
legislate to reduce the possibility of death and injury from fires in
new build housing in Wales. She has argued that a requirement to fit
such systems in all new residential properties and premises would be a
preventative measure, so that people could get out of their home safely
in the event of a fire occurring. It would also reduce the risk to
firefighters who are called to deal with domestic
fires.
Hon.
Members will be aware that Parliament has already agreed that Welsh
Ministers should assume responsibility for building regulations from
the end of 2011. Provision to require the installation of fire
sprinklers could be made under such regulations. It is important
therefore to be clear that the draft LCO is about whether the Assembly,
rather than Welsh Ministers, should decide on the installation of fire
sprinklers in new homes in Wales, not the merits or otherwise of fire
sprinklers themselves. I believe firmly that the Assembly should be
able to decide this significant issue and so give the decision more
democratic legitimacy and
accountability.
I
would like to reassure those who may have concerns about the possible
effects of the LCO on the Welsh house building industry in these
difficult economic times. No onenot this Government, the
Assembly Government or Ann Jones herselfwould want to place
unnecessary, arbitrary burdens on Welsh house builders. Indeed, Miss
Jones has written to me acknowledging that there are concerns in some
quarters and committing to working with the CBI and the wider business
community to ensure that any subsequent legislation is workable.
I have made copies of her letter available for hon. Members
to
read.
The
process of making Assembly Measures has built-in safeguards to ensure
that laws are made sensibly. Any proposed Measure brought forward as a
result of the LCO would be subject to extensive consultation and
rigorous impact assessment, taking full account of all the issues and
concerns, including potential additional costs to house building, water
pressure and ongoing
maintenance.
Only
minor and technical changes have been made to the LCO following
pre-legislative scrutiny. One such change amended the name of the order
to incorporate the words, fire safety. That is in line
with the views of the Welsh Affairs Committee, which commented that the
name of the LCO should reflect and communicate its
contents.
Other
minor changes have been made to improve the drafting. In particular,
the opening words of Matter 11.1 now refer to the
provision of
automatic fire suppression systems,
rather than to
provision for and in connection with a requirement that such systems be
installed. That broader wording does not limit the Assembly to
requiring that automatic fire suppression systems are provided, but
remains consistent with the objectives identified by Ann Jones. If the
draft LCO is approved by this House and the other place, an Assembly
Measure resulting from this competence could be brought forward by Ann
Jones or the Assembly Government. The legislative competence that the
LCO confers is clear and specific, and I commend it to the
Committee.
4.36
pm
Mr.
David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): May I say what a pleasure
it is to serve under your chairmanship, Miss Begg? The explanatory
memorandum makes it clear that the purpose of the order is to give
legislative competence to the Welsh Assembly to pass measures relating
to the provision of automatic fire suppression systems in new
residential premises. In most cases, that would amount to the provision
of water sprinklers, which could be replaced by other systems as
technologies evolve.
This is the
second so-called Back-Bench LCO that the House has considered. The
proposal is remarkable for the length of time taken to arrive at this
point. The Assembly Member in question, Ann Jones, won the ballot of
Assembly Members as long ago as June 2007. It therefore seems
extraordinary that such a long time should elapse before it arrives at
the point where the order is actually made, and that poses the question
of whether the LCO procedure is entirely appropriate in the case of
Back-Bench proposals, which usually have a single and, frequently,
narrow Measure in mind. The Minister and the Wales Office may wish to
contemplate whether a more streamlined procedure could be adopted for
such proposals in future.
I have a
couple of observations for the Minister to consider. He touched on them
in his opening remarks. He mentioned the possible effect on the Welsh
construction industry, which is suffering grievously as a result of the
economic downturn. Paragraph 7.22 of the explanatory memorandum says
that the cost of installing such systems is estimated to be about to be
about 1 to 2 per cent. of the total cost of construction. I suggest
that it will be very difficult for builders to add such costs to the
selling price in the current climate and that they will therefore
probably feel obliged to absorb the additional costs themselves. Will
the Minister tell us what soundings have been taken from the Welsh
construction industry, and does it broadly welcome the
proposal?
The
explanatory memorandum also makes it clear that the current legislative
framework for fire safety in new residential premises is provided by
the building regulations. Last November, an order was made that
transferred functions relating to the building regulations to Welsh
Ministers, and that transfer is due to take place next year. Given that
such functions have been transferred to Welsh Ministers and that they
appear to support the proposal, is it possible that the order has been
overtaken by events and is now unnecessary? I take the
Ministers point about the democratic choice being with the
Assembly itself, rather than with Ministers, but given that the
Assembly Member in question and Ministers appear to be ad idem in this
connection, are we not wasting our time this afternoon? Subject to
those two points, I have no observations to make, and we will not
oppose the
order.
4.39
pm
Chris
Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): First, I would like to
counter some of the words used by the hon. Member for Clwyd, West. Has
he taken into account the cost of a death to the familyto a
loved one, mother, father or son? I hope he has borne that in
mind.
The
main reason why I want to contribute is that Ann Jones is the Assembly
Member for my constituencythe Vale of Clwydand I have
known her for 25 years. She was a fellow councillor on Rhyl town
council. Before becoming an Assembly Member, she was a fire brigade
call centre worker in Merseyside and north Wales. This legislation
comes from her heart. Over her 25-year career in the fire service, she
answered dozens of phone calls involving deaths. That had a strong
impact on her. She has not forgotten her roots after 25 years in the
fire service and 10 years in the National Assembly. When she had the
opportunity to propose a piece of legislation, this is what she chose.
I agree with the hon. Member for
Clwyd, West that three years is far too long. Nevertheless, I pay
tribute to Anns dogged determination in seeing this through to
the
end.
4.41
pm
Mark
Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve
under your chairmanship this afternoon, Miss
Begg.
We
welcome the order, but as the last two speakers have said, it is
disappointing that we have had to wait this long for it. There was
confusion over whether the matter would be included in the building
regulations. As the Minister said in his evidence to the Select
Committee, LCOs are a matter for the Assembly
Government.
Alun
Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): As a
fellow member of the Welsh Affairs Committee, I think it might be
useful to tell this Committee that the Select Committee has stated that
in future it intends to take a more proactive overview of the time
scale and progress of such matters when they are referred to
Parliament.
Mark
Williams: The right hon. Gentleman is right. There needs
to be a detailed look at the timetable and where the blockages in the
process have been. That must be made clear to commentators and to those
who look at our proceedings. There are lessons to be learned and I
sincerely hope that if the system of LCOs continues, such delays can be
avoided.
We
welcome the order. As the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd said, Ann Jones
has pursued the matter with dogged determination, as anybody who sat
through her evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee will understand.
This matter has long been a passion of hersthroughout her
professional career and more recently. We are all impressed by the way
in which she has brought the matter forward. Regardless of her personal
commitment, this is a critical
issue.
I
appreciate the concerns that have been raised about the cost to the
building industry, but that is a debate for the National Assembly. We
have heard that Ann Jones will consult widely with the construction
industry as the Measure is taken forward. Critically, that debate must
take place not here this afternoon, but in the National
Assembly.
The
hon. Member for Clwyd, West mentioned cost. The US National Institute
of Standards and Technology figure was that the additional cost
amounted to 1.2 per cent. I equate that to the figures that we heard in
the Select Committee for fire-related deaths and injuries in the home.
In 2008-09, 12 people in Wales died from fires in the home and in the
preceding year, 31 people died. That is what this LCO is about and I
applaud Ann Joness enthusiasm in pressing the matter further in
the National
Assembly.
Questions
have been raised about whether this matter should reside in field 7 or
11. I am satisfied that field 11 is appropriate because it relates
purely to fire safety measures in residential properties and the order
will, to all intents and purposes, be a building regulation rather than
a fire safety
measure.
I
am pleased that the order is being brought forward. Those at most risk
from fire are the people who are more vulnerable generally. This is a
positive measure that can save lives at what my party considers to be
minimal cost.
4.45
pm
Hywel
Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): I apologise for my slightly
late arrival.
[Interruption.] I was held up by
journalists.
First, I want
to express my satisfaction with the work of the Select Committee on
Welsh Affairs on this matter. We worked quickly, expeditiously and with
some expertise, given that we have considered several legislative
competence orders. However, as hon. Members have said, the timetable
for this one was extended. Ann Jones won the ballot on 26 June 2007,
and the National Assembly agreed to lay the proposed order on 10
October 2007. Yet it appeared before the Welsh Affairs Committee in
October 2009, some two years and four months later. There is concern in
the CommitteeI, at least, am concernedabout the support
that Back Benchers receive when they propose legislative competence
orders. The system is not perfect, by any means, and I am sure that it
will receive further attention fairly soon. That was also the case with
the mental health legislative competence order. The delay may not have
been so long, but those concerns arose
then.
Let
me deal with the cost of death and injury, and the economic cost. An
average of some 20 people lose their lives in fires every year, two of
whom die in fires that have been started deliberately, so the matter is
serious. Since the LCO was proposed, between 50 and 60 people have lost
their lives, and many more have been injured. As the LCO does not
relate to existing buildings, not all those lives would have been
saved, but that is the scale of the problem that Ann Jones has tackled
in the LCO, to her
credit.
The
most recent estimate of the economic cost of fires in Wales that I have
is more than £400 million in 2006. That must be compared with
the cost of implementing this LCO. The figure is truly astonishing, and
one of the strongest arguments in favour of the LCO. Parts of the
building industry are suffering at present, but that figure is
unanswerable. I am glad that the order has reached this far, and I wish
it every
speed.
4.48
pm
Mrs.
Betty Williams (Conwy) (Lab): I also congratulate Ann
Jones, the Assembly Member for Vale of Clwyd, on her perseverance and
efforts in pursuing the matter. This legislation is long overdue, and
if it goes through and the Welsh Assembly carries on with its plans, we
will have done a great service for the people of
Wales.
More
or less all the Committees members represent Welsh
constituencies, and five of us represent constituencies in north Wales,
including the hon. Member for Clwyd, West. I was surprised at some of
his questions and points, which could be described as nit-picking, on a
serious matter. We represent north Wales constituencies, and we are
familiar with statistics that we constantly receive from the fire
service about the number of deaths that could have been avoided by such
legislation.
Chris
Ruane: As a north Walian, does my hon. Friend believe that
it is particularly pertinent that, because of the large number of
pensioners in north Wales, for many years we have had the highest
number of deaths from fires, so the legislation is particularly suited
to the north Wales perspective?
Mrs.
Betty Williams: I was making the point that if we save
only one life with this legislation, we will have done the people of
Wales a good service.
Alun
Michael: As a Gog sent out into the missionary field, I
want to see the benefits of the LCO applied in south Wales as
well.
Mrs.
Williams: It is clear from the information received from
Ann Jones that she has consulted the CBI on the matter and will
continue to do so, so the queries raised by the hon. Member for Clwyd,
West will be answered by correspondence with the CBI in Wales. I fully
support the legislation, which is long overdue, and wish Ann Jones all
success with the
Measure.
4.50
pm
Mr.
Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): I am grateful to be called to
speak briefly in this important debate. I want to raise a concern that
was brought to my attention by the fire service in ShropshireI
appreciate that it is not directly relevant, but from time to time its
members cross the border to assist their colleagues in Wales to contend
with occasional incidents. When discussing that issue with them it was
made clear to me that their experience in Shropshire was that 90 per
cent. of domestic fires take place in the kitchen, so their
recommendation is that sprinklers be fitted in kitchens only. Has that
issue come up in the pre-legislative scrutiny in the Assembly and in
Parliament? What would be the cost implications of that proposal,
rather than having to have sprinklers throughout the
house?
4.51
pm
Mr.
David: I thank hon. Members for their positive comments on
an important order giving competence to the Welsh Assembly. I was
particularly pleased by the positive comments from my hon. Friend the
Member for Conwy and the hon. Members for Caernarfon and for
Ceredigion, who all support the proposal. The facts about that real
problem in many parts of Wales speak for themselves. We talk about
costs but, as Members have asked, how do we manage the cost of death
and the cost of damage to property, which also must be part of the
equation?
The
hon. Member for Clwyd, West made several points, particularly with
regard to the time it has taken for the private Members LCO to
come forward, and other Members referred to that, too. As I told the
Welsh Affairs Committee in evidence, there has been a debate in the
Welsh Assembly about whether it is appropriate for the proposal to be
incorporated in the building regulations or whether it should be in a
free-standing private Members LCO. In a sense, that is an issue
for the Welsh Assembly. The Wales Office responds only to what is
presented to it, as we are the facilitators. With regard to how quickly
matters progress, the ball is very much in the Assemblys
court.
Another
point is that we are of course talking about a relatively new
procedure. As the Select Committee has acknowledged, the speed with
which matters that come from the Assembly are dealt with is improving.
Certainly, the situation is now much better than it was during the
initial stages of the process.
The hon.
Member for Clwyd, West referred specifically to the cost and to some
concerns that might exist in sections of the house building and
construction industries in Wales. I reiterate the fact that Ann Jones
has taken the trouble to have extensive consultations with the
Federation of Master Builders and other organisations, as she states in
her letter. That debate will now be more intense because, as we all
recognise, when a Measure comes forward as a consequence of the LCO, a
regulatory impact assessment is mandatory. I have every confidence that
Ann Jones, and indeed the Assembly Government if they decide to
introduce a Measure, will have deep and meaningful consultation with
the building industry in Wales. I have no doubt about that.
The hon.
Member for Ludlow asked about the future implementation of Measures,
and that matter will be considered at a later stage. We are giving the
Welsh Assembly the facility to come forward with a Measure that might
or might not particularise. That is a matter for the Welsh Assembly and
individual Assembly Members to consider at the appropriate
time.
Chris
Ruane: Does my hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for
Ludlow, in trying to limit the number of sprinklers in the house, was
trying to water down Ann Joness legislation?
[Interruption.] Mr.
David: I am sure that the pun was not intended. It is
important for us not to second-guess what the Assembly or its Members
may do at a later stage, but to bestow upon it the powers that have
been asked for.
There has been extensive scrutiny and what is before us is an effective
anddare I say it?watertight
proposal.
Mr.
Jones: May we return to delay, which I touched on in my
remarks? If this application had been processed expeditiously, we might
have been at this point several months or even a year ago. The
consequence of the delay is that the Welsh Assembly Government have
competence, through the transfer of functions order, to make building
regulations that can comprehend the very provisions we are considering.
I reiterate: has not the delay in bringing this LCO forward defeated
its object as it can now be achieved by means of the building
regulations?
Mr.
David: I do not think it has. If the Welsh Assembly
Government from 2012 onwards wish to bring forward a Measure under the
building regulations, they could do so. However, the result of agreeing
to the order, assuming that it gets consent from the Privy Council, is
that the Assembly and its Members will have the power immediately. If
the Assembly Government and Assembly Members wish to introduce
something in advance of the building regulations, they could do
so.
I
thank the Committee for its informed comments and
enthusiasm.
Question
put and agreed
to.
4.57
pm
Committee
rose.