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Delegated Legislation Committee Debates

Draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing) (Fire Safety) Order 2010



The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chairman: Miss Anne Begg
Ainger, Nick (Carmarthen, West and South Pembrokeshire) (Lab)
David, Mr. Wayne (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales)
Dunne, Mr. Philip (Ludlow) (Con)
Flynn, Paul (Newport, West) (Lab)
Havard, Mr. Dai (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)
Jones, Mr. David (Clwyd, West) (Con)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie (Bromsgrove) (Con)
Leigh, Mr. Edward (Gainsborough) (Con)
Michael, Alun (Cardiff, South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
Morden, Jessica (Newport, East) (Lab)
Prosser, Gwyn (Dover) (Lab)
Stanley, Sir John (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)
Tami, Mark (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
Williams, Mrs. Betty (Conwy) (Lab)
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon) (PC)
Williams, Mark (Ceredigion) (LD)
Georgina Holmes-Skelton, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee
The following also attended, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(2):
Ruane, Chris (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)

Seventh Delegated Legislation Committee

Tuesday 16 March 2010

[Miss Anne Begg in the Chair]

Draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing) (Fire Safety) Order 2010

4.30 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wayne David): I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing) (Fire Safety) Order 2010.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Miss Begg.
This legislative competence order has already been approved by the National Assembly for Wales. It was introduced by Ann Jones, the Assembly Member for the Vale of Clwyd, and is the second LCO introduced by a Back-Bench Member of the National Assembly to come before this House. The Welsh Assembly Government support the order.
I strongly support the ability of Assembly Members to introduce proposals for LCOs. It demonstrates the flexibility and versatility of the system for conferring legislative competence on the National Assembly and enables individual Assembly Members to participate directly in enhancing that competence.
The order has benefited from pre-legislative scrutiny by our Welsh Affairs Committee, the Constitution Committee in the other place and a Committee of the National Assembly for Wales. I am grateful to the Committees for the work that they have undertaken, and I shall return in a moment to the minor changes that have been made following scrutiny.
Turning to content, the draft LCO inserts a single matter into field 11, which is on housing, in part 1 of schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 2006. It will enable the National Assembly to legislate on the provision of automatic fire repression systems, such as fire sprinklers, in new residential premises. The LCO sets out that “new residential premises” means premises constructed for, or converted to, residential use. An Assembly Measure could not require the retrospective fitting of fire sprinklers to existing residential properties.
This is a narrowly defined order with a clear purpose. Ann Jones has said from the outset that the purpose of the LCO is to allow the Assembly to legislate to reduce the possibility of death and injury from fires in new build housing in Wales. She has argued that a requirement to fit such systems in all new residential properties and premises would be a preventative measure, so that people could get out of their home safely in the event of a fire occurring. It would also reduce the risk to firefighters who are called to deal with domestic fires.
Hon. Members will be aware that Parliament has already agreed that Welsh Ministers should assume responsibility for building regulations from the end of 2011. Provision to require the installation of fire sprinklers could be made under such regulations. It is important therefore to be clear that the draft LCO is about whether the Assembly, rather than Welsh Ministers, should decide on the installation of fire sprinklers in new homes in Wales, not the merits or otherwise of fire sprinklers themselves. I believe firmly that the Assembly should be able to decide this significant issue and so give the decision more democratic legitimacy and accountability.
I would like to reassure those who may have concerns about the possible effects of the LCO on the Welsh house building industry in these difficult economic times. No one—not this Government, the Assembly Government or Ann Jones herself—would want to place unnecessary, arbitrary burdens on Welsh house builders. Indeed, Miss Jones has written to me acknowledging that there are concerns in some quarters and committing to working with the CBI and the wider business community to ensure that any subsequent legislation is workable. I have made copies of her letter available for hon. Members to read.
The process of making Assembly Measures has built-in safeguards to ensure that laws are made sensibly. Any proposed Measure brought forward as a result of the LCO would be subject to extensive consultation and rigorous impact assessment, taking full account of all the issues and concerns, including potential additional costs to house building, water pressure and ongoing maintenance.
Only minor and technical changes have been made to the LCO following pre-legislative scrutiny. One such change amended the name of the order to incorporate the words, “fire safety”. That is in line with the views of the Welsh Affairs Committee, which commented that the name of the LCO should “reflect and communicate” its contents.
Other minor changes have been made to improve the drafting. In particular, the opening words of Matter 11.1 now refer to the
“provision of automatic fire suppression systems”,
rather than to provision for and in connection with a requirement that such systems be installed. That broader wording does not limit the Assembly to requiring that automatic fire suppression systems are provided, but remains consistent with the objectives identified by Ann Jones. If the draft LCO is approved by this House and the other place, an Assembly Measure resulting from this competence could be brought forward by Ann Jones or the Assembly Government. The legislative competence that the LCO confers is clear and specific, and I commend it to the Committee.
4.36 pm
Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Miss Begg? The explanatory memorandum makes it clear that the purpose of the order is to give legislative competence to the Welsh Assembly to pass measures relating to the provision of automatic fire suppression systems in new residential premises. In most cases, that would amount to the provision of water sprinklers, which could be replaced by other systems as technologies evolve.
This is the second so-called Back-Bench LCO that the House has considered. The proposal is remarkable for the length of time taken to arrive at this point. The Assembly Member in question, Ann Jones, won the ballot of Assembly Members as long ago as June 2007. It therefore seems extraordinary that such a long time should elapse before it arrives at the point where the order is actually made, and that poses the question of whether the LCO procedure is entirely appropriate in the case of Back-Bench proposals, which usually have a single and, frequently, narrow Measure in mind. The Minister and the Wales Office may wish to contemplate whether a more streamlined procedure could be adopted for such proposals in future.
I have a couple of observations for the Minister to consider. He touched on them in his opening remarks. He mentioned the possible effect on the Welsh construction industry, which is suffering grievously as a result of the economic downturn. Paragraph 7.22 of the explanatory memorandum says that the cost of installing such systems is estimated to be about to be about 1 to 2 per cent. of the total cost of construction. I suggest that it will be very difficult for builders to add such costs to the selling price in the current climate and that they will therefore probably feel obliged to absorb the additional costs themselves. Will the Minister tell us what soundings have been taken from the Welsh construction industry, and does it broadly welcome the proposal?
The explanatory memorandum also makes it clear that the current legislative framework for fire safety in new residential premises is provided by the building regulations. Last November, an order was made that transferred functions relating to the building regulations to Welsh Ministers, and that transfer is due to take place next year. Given that such functions have been transferred to Welsh Ministers and that they appear to support the proposal, is it possible that the order has been overtaken by events and is now unnecessary? I take the Minister’s point about the democratic choice being with the Assembly itself, rather than with Ministers, but given that the Assembly Member in question and Ministers appear to be ad idem in this connection, are we not wasting our time this afternoon? Subject to those two points, I have no observations to make, and we will not oppose the order.
4.39 pm
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): First, I would like to counter some of the words used by the hon. Member for Clwyd, West. Has he taken into account the cost of a death to the family—to a loved one, mother, father or son? I hope he has borne that in mind.
The main reason why I want to contribute is that Ann Jones is the Assembly Member for my constituency—the Vale of Clwyd—and I have known her for 25 years. She was a fellow councillor on Rhyl town council. Before becoming an Assembly Member, she was a fire brigade call centre worker in Merseyside and north Wales. This legislation comes from her heart. Over her 25-year career in the fire service, she answered dozens of phone calls involving deaths. That had a strong impact on her. She has not forgotten her roots after 25 years in the fire service and 10 years in the National Assembly. When she had the opportunity to propose a piece of legislation, this is what she chose. I agree with the hon. Member for Clwyd, West that three years is far too long. Nevertheless, I pay tribute to Ann’s dogged determination in seeing this through to the end.
4.41 pm
Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Miss Begg.
We welcome the order, but as the last two speakers have said, it is disappointing that we have had to wait this long for it. There was confusion over whether the matter would be included in the building regulations. As the Minister said in his evidence to the Select Committee, LCOs are a matter for the Assembly Government.
Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): As a fellow member of the Welsh Affairs Committee, I think it might be useful to tell this Committee that the Select Committee has stated that in future it intends to take a more proactive overview of the time scale and progress of such matters when they are referred to Parliament.
Mark Williams: The right hon. Gentleman is right. There needs to be a detailed look at the timetable and where the blockages in the process have been. That must be made clear to commentators and to those who look at our proceedings. There are lessons to be learned and I sincerely hope that if the system of LCOs continues, such delays can be avoided.
We welcome the order. As the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd said, Ann Jones has pursued the matter with dogged determination, as anybody who sat through her evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee will understand. This matter has long been a passion of hers—throughout her professional career and more recently. We are all impressed by the way in which she has brought the matter forward. Regardless of her personal commitment, this is a critical issue.
I appreciate the concerns that have been raised about the cost to the building industry, but that is a debate for the National Assembly. We have heard that Ann Jones will consult widely with the construction industry as the Measure is taken forward. Critically, that debate must take place not here this afternoon, but in the National Assembly.
The hon. Member for Clwyd, West mentioned cost. The US National Institute of Standards and Technology figure was that the additional cost amounted to 1.2 per cent. I equate that to the figures that we heard in the Select Committee for fire-related deaths and injuries in the home. In 2008-09, 12 people in Wales died from fires in the home and in the preceding year, 31 people died. That is what this LCO is about and I applaud Ann Jones’s enthusiasm in pressing the matter further in the National Assembly.
Questions have been raised about whether this matter should reside in field 7 or 11. I am satisfied that field 11 is appropriate because it relates purely to fire safety measures in residential properties and the order will, to all intents and purposes, be a building regulation rather than a fire safety measure.
I am pleased that the order is being brought forward. Those at most risk from fire are the people who are more vulnerable generally. This is a positive measure that can save lives at what my party considers to be minimal cost.
4.45 pm
Hywel Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): I apologise for my slightly late arrival. [Interruption.] I was held up by journalists.
First, I want to express my satisfaction with the work of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs on this matter. We worked quickly, expeditiously and with some expertise, given that we have considered several legislative competence orders. However, as hon. Members have said, the timetable for this one was extended. Ann Jones won the ballot on 26 June 2007, and the National Assembly agreed to lay the proposed order on 10 October 2007. Yet it appeared before the Welsh Affairs Committee in October 2009, some two years and four months later. There is concern in the Committee—I, at least, am concerned—about the support that Back Benchers receive when they propose legislative competence orders. The system is not perfect, by any means, and I am sure that it will receive further attention fairly soon. That was also the case with the mental health legislative competence order. The delay may not have been so long, but those concerns arose then.
Let me deal with the cost of death and injury, and the economic cost. An average of some 20 people lose their lives in fires every year, two of whom die in fires that have been started deliberately, so the matter is serious. Since the LCO was proposed, between 50 and 60 people have lost their lives, and many more have been injured. As the LCO does not relate to existing buildings, not all those lives would have been saved, but that is the scale of the problem that Ann Jones has tackled in the LCO, to her credit.
The most recent estimate of the economic cost of fires in Wales that I have is more than £400 million in 2006. That must be compared with the cost of implementing this LCO. The figure is truly astonishing, and one of the strongest arguments in favour of the LCO. Parts of the building industry are suffering at present, but that figure is unanswerable. I am glad that the order has reached this far, and I wish it every speed.
4.48 pm
Mrs. Betty Williams (Conwy) (Lab): I also congratulate Ann Jones, the Assembly Member for Vale of Clwyd, on her perseverance and efforts in pursuing the matter. This legislation is long overdue, and if it goes through and the Welsh Assembly carries on with its plans, we will have done a great service for the people of Wales.
More or less all the Committee’s members represent Welsh constituencies, and five of us represent constituencies in north Wales, including the hon. Member for Clwyd, West. I was surprised at some of his questions and points, which could be described as nit-picking, on a serious matter. We represent north Wales constituencies, and we are familiar with statistics that we constantly receive from the fire service about the number of deaths that could have been avoided by such legislation.
Chris Ruane: As a north Walian, does my hon. Friend believe that it is particularly pertinent that, because of the large number of pensioners in north Wales, for many years we have had the highest number of deaths from fires, so the legislation is particularly suited to the north Wales perspective?
Mrs. Betty Williams: I was making the point that if we save only one life with this legislation, we will have done the people of Wales a good service.
Alun Michael: As a Gog sent out into the missionary field, I want to see the benefits of the LCO applied in south Wales as well.
Mrs. Williams: It is clear from the information received from Ann Jones that she has consulted the CBI on the matter and will continue to do so, so the queries raised by the hon. Member for Clwyd, West will be answered by correspondence with the CBI in Wales. I fully support the legislation, which is long overdue, and wish Ann Jones all success with the Measure.
4.50 pm
Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): I am grateful to be called to speak briefly in this important debate. I want to raise a concern that was brought to my attention by the fire service in Shropshire—I appreciate that it is not directly relevant, but from time to time its members cross the border to assist their colleagues in Wales to contend with occasional incidents. When discussing that issue with them it was made clear to me that their experience in Shropshire was that 90 per cent. of domestic fires take place in the kitchen, so their recommendation is that sprinklers be fitted in kitchens only. Has that issue come up in the pre-legislative scrutiny in the Assembly and in Parliament? What would be the cost implications of that proposal, rather than having to have sprinklers throughout the house?
4.51 pm
Mr. David: I thank hon. Members for their positive comments on an important order giving competence to the Welsh Assembly. I was particularly pleased by the positive comments from my hon. Friend the Member for Conwy and the hon. Members for Caernarfon and for Ceredigion, who all support the proposal. The facts about that real problem in many parts of Wales speak for themselves. We talk about costs but, as Members have asked, how do we manage the cost of death and the cost of damage to property, which also must be part of the equation?
The hon. Member for Clwyd, West made several points, particularly with regard to the time it has taken for the private Member’s LCO to come forward, and other Members referred to that, too. As I told the Welsh Affairs Committee in evidence, there has been a debate in the Welsh Assembly about whether it is appropriate for the proposal to be incorporated in the building regulations or whether it should be in a free-standing private Member’s LCO. In a sense, that is an issue for the Welsh Assembly. The Wales Office responds only to what is presented to it, as we are the facilitators. With regard to how quickly matters progress, the ball is very much in the Assembly’s court.
Another point is that we are of course talking about a relatively new procedure. As the Select Committee has acknowledged, the speed with which matters that come from the Assembly are dealt with is improving. Certainly, the situation is now much better than it was during the initial stages of the process.
The hon. Member for Clwyd, West referred specifically to the cost and to some concerns that might exist in sections of the house building and construction industries in Wales. I reiterate the fact that Ann Jones has taken the trouble to have extensive consultations with the Federation of Master Builders and other organisations, as she states in her letter. That debate will now be more intense because, as we all recognise, when a Measure comes forward as a consequence of the LCO, a regulatory impact assessment is mandatory. I have every confidence that Ann Jones, and indeed the Assembly Government if they decide to introduce a Measure, will have deep and meaningful consultation with the building industry in Wales. I have no doubt about that.
The hon. Member for Ludlow asked about the future implementation of Measures, and that matter will be considered at a later stage. We are giving the Welsh Assembly the facility to come forward with a Measure that might or might not particularise. That is a matter for the Welsh Assembly and individual Assembly Members to consider at the appropriate time.
Chris Ruane: Does my hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for Ludlow, in trying to limit the number of sprinklers in the house, was trying to water down Ann Jones’s legislation? [Interruption.]
Mr. David: I am sure that the pun was not intended. It is important for us not to second-guess what the Assembly or its Members may do at a later stage, but to bestow upon it the powers that have been asked for. There has been extensive scrutiny and what is before us is an effective and—dare I say it?—watertight proposal.
Mr. Jones: May we return to delay, which I touched on in my remarks? If this application had been processed expeditiously, we might have been at this point several months or even a year ago. The consequence of the delay is that the Welsh Assembly Government have competence, through the transfer of functions order, to make building regulations that can comprehend the very provisions we are considering. I reiterate: has not the delay in bringing this LCO forward defeated its object as it can now be achieved by means of the building regulations?
Mr. David: I do not think it has. If the Welsh Assembly Government from 2012 onwards wish to bring forward a Measure under the building regulations, they could do so. However, the result of agreeing to the order, assuming that it gets consent from the Privy Council, is that the Assembly and its Members will have the power immediately. If the Assembly Government and Assembly Members wish to introduce something in advance of the building regulations, they could do so.
I thank the Committee for its informed comments and enthusiasm.
Question put and agreed to.
4.57 pm
Committee rose.
 
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