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"the mission must not fail".
That issue was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mr. Baron), who has since left the Chamber. At the same time, the Prime Minister set five tests for Karzai's new Government-on security, governance, reconciliation, economic development and engagement with neighbours. Those tests appeared to be in conflict. The Foreign Secretary sought to explain in his speech that the Prime Minister was referring to tests for development assistance and that they did not relate to our military presence in Afghanistan, but that is not how the Prime Minister's speech read on 6 November, and it was not how it was understood at the time, so I hope that the Defence Secretary will confirm the Foreign Secretary's clarification.
Ten days later, the Prime Minister gave another speech on Afghanistan and spoke of starting to hand provinces over to the Afghans in 2010 "if at all possible", and raised the prospect of a timetable for such handovers. Do Ministers agree that it is not possible to have a timetable in a province such as Helmand, which would set a timetable for the Taliban to work to, as well as everyone else? Will they be careful not to exaggerate the significance of such timetables, despite the pressures of a general election campaign here in Britain?
Thirdly, the Prime Minister used the same speech to re-announce the idea of hosting a conference in London to set out a plan for handing Afghanistan back to the Afghans. He first announced the proposal in September, saying that the conference should be held
"before the end of this year right after the inauguration of the new Afghan government."
But that is now. Clearly the conference is not taking place now, and some NATO Foreign Ministers have told me that they are not at all sure it can or should be held early in the new year, as the Prime Minister has now suggested, because it would not be adequately prepared. Can Ministers say when they really expect the conference to take place? Would it not be wiser for the Prime Minister to have a sound basis for such announcements, rather than making repeated announcements-indeed, the same announcement-only for the promised action not to take place?
Finally on Afghanistan, I hope that Ministers will comment on the latest reports of serious inefficiencies in the provision of appropriate equipment. If it is true, as reported in the press today, that £149 million has been spent upgrading 900 armoured vehicles, which are not then suitable for use, I know that my hon. Friends in the shadow defence team will have some very searching questions to ask, and they will not be satisfied with answers that are less than frank.
Of course, any strategy for Afghanistan will work only if there is a sufficient effort in Pakistan to deal with those who seek to undermine democracy in that country. The Foreign Secretary rightly spoke of the need to address al-Qaeda in Pakistan as well as the Taliban. Just like in Afghanistan, military involvement is only one of the tools needed to ensure long-term stability. In Britain we will need to continue, in the years ahead, to assist the Government of Pakistan with education, health care and employment, particularly in areas that have been affected by the recent campaigns against insurgents.
Jeremy Corbyn: I have listened very carefully to the right hon. Gentleman. Does he envisage a point any time soon when British troops will withdraw from Afghanistan? Would he, on that same basis of dealing with what he perceives to be insurgency, therefore deploy British troops into Pakistan or other countries? It seems to me that there is a counsel of constant intervention rather than withdrawal.
Mr. Hague: No, I am not suggesting deploying British troops into Pakistan. The Foreign Secretary spoke about the efforts of the Pakistan army to deal with the situation in Pakistan, and that is something that we should support. As for setting a date or announcing that British troops will leave Afghanistan, I do not believe it would be helpful to the troops now working so hard there to set a date for their withdrawal because it would be extremely damaging to their efforts for people to think we were going to withdraw on a certain date, irrespective of the consequences. Ministers have spoken, as have Conservative Members, about the fact that we are not there for ever, and the huge efforts-which must be intensified-to make sure that Afghans can look after their own security, but setting a date now would be a mistake.
Mr. Frank Field:
I am sure that the whole House hopes the shadow Foreign Secretary will get answers from the Defence Secretary in the reply to this debate, but even if he gets replies to the questions he has asked, we will not get the view of the House. If the Government refuse to give us a debate on a motion that we can
amend, will the right hon. Gentleman take back to the shadow Cabinet the proposal that the Opposition use one of their days to have a debate on a motion that we can amend, so that we can get the view of the House which will then begin to shape the debate in the country?
Mr. Hague: There should be regular statements-we have always asked for quarterly reports-to the House on Afghanistan, setting out the resources involved and the objectives of the British Government. That is part of effective communication by the Government with the country, as well as with Parliament. It is consistent with the position that the right hon. Gentleman has taken, which my colleagues and I have also taken, on the deployment of British troops overseas into conflict, which is that there should be a vote in the House. It would be a tricky matter for an Opposition day to be used for that purpose, but the Government should present a motion when British troops are deployed into conflict overseas, so I entirely sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman's point.
Paul Flynn: Does the right hon. Gentleman see the attraction of naming a date, given that we are looking back on eight years of failed outcomes, in relation to what we claim to be our aims in Afghanistan? Naming a date-some of our allies have named a date-changes the mindset: it takes us from believing in the fantasy of future victories and successes, and allows us to concentrate on the real endgame, which will mean a deal.
Mr. Hague: If the principal countries with a military presence in Afghanistan named a date, it would change the mindset in all sorts of ways-ways that would not be helpful. It would encourage those who are against our forces to believe in their own victory. That would be a great mistake. Even from the point of view of those who, like the hon. Gentleman, honourably and legitimately believe that we should withdraw from Afghanistan, it would be wrong to set a date; it would be the wrong way to go about a withdrawal, even if we believed in withdrawal.
Harry Cohen: What counsel does the shadow Foreign Secretary want the British Government to give to President Obama's Government? Is it that they should send more troops and bring about a big surge? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 71 per cent. of the British population is opposed to that? His party's shadow Defence Secretary gave a speech last year in the House in which he spoke out against a surge.
Mr. Hague: I am not sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox), or anyone else, can recall that particular speech. No doubt we can sort out that point. The advice that we would give to President Obama-indeed, we have given it to the US Administration-is the advice that I set out a few moments ago, when I spoke of the four essential aspects of a strategy in Afghanistan. They include an enhanced ability to conduct proper counter-insurgency operations that protect and win over the local population. Clearly, it is the view of the US military-and, I think, the UK military-that that requires a higher number of troops from the United States. I would be surprised if that were not part of President Obama's announcement.
Ms Gisela Stuart: What is the shadow Foreign Secretary's response to the suggestion that, although British troops are deployed to defend geographical areas such as Helmand province, the future is much more about particular functions being performed by British troops in association with an increased number of American troops? That would mean a move from geographical representation to carrying out a functional operation with American troops.
Mr. Hague: Again, it would be surprising if British troops were not working with an increased number of American troops, but it would be wise for us to take the military advice on how those troops should work together. There is a limit to the extent to which we politicians should make ourselves into armchair generals. The way that troops work together in a theatre of war is something on which we have to take the military advice.
Andrew Mackinlay: But in reality we have not tested the military advice. People have been told that when General McChrystal arrived, he said, "Will somebody tell me what we're doing in Helmand?" From a military point of view, we have to be realistic: there are things that we can do, and things that we cannot. It is not just politics that is the art of the possible. Helmand is not winnable in the military sense, and the sooner we realise that, the better. We can then focus special forces on getting the bandits and the people who are undermining things. We should do that, rather than spread our resources, with enormous loss of life and maiming, given that we are talking about something that cannot be won.
Mr. Hague: I do not think that we-or Ministers, actually-have argued that any of the situations in Afghanistan is winnable only in a military sense. That is why political strategy is required, alongside the military strategy. Of course it also depends on what we mean by "winning". In this case, as I have defined it, it means getting the Afghans into a position where they can look after their own security without presenting a danger to anyone else. That is different from "winning" in the second world war, or previous conflicts that ended with the unconditional surrender of the enemy.
I will return in a moment to vital and related issues concerning Iran and the middle east, but I feel it is important, after recent events, to congratulate the Secretary of State on being here as Foreign Secretary at all. He has said that he was flattered to have been so seriously considered for the position of High Representative, but I think it is fair to say that he was not only flattered but tempted for a while, and that his continuation as Foreign Secretary was a decision that was made on balance, and with some agonising, rather than after a few moments.
David Miliband indicated dissent.
Mr. Hague: The Foreign Secretary is shaking his head, so the decision was clearly made after a few moments but not communicated in Europe for a long time. In any event, his decision shows laudable tenacity or appropriate faith in the nation state or a conviction that, whatever happens, the Prime Minister will soon be gone. We consider all these motives wholly praiseworthy, so we have no hesitation in welcoming his continued presence.
We add our congratulations to the noble Baroness Ashton on her appointment as High Representative and wish her well in what will not be an easy job. Her appointment was the outcome of a murky process, to put it mildly. In this age of transparency, democracy and freedom of information, Ministers may wish to shed some light on whether it is true that the Prime Minister put forward three names for nomination as High Representative to the European socialist leaders. This has been reported in the press, and it has been said by European Foreign Ministers to us that three names were put forward by the Prime Minister before Baroness Ashton was accepted.
It appears that the names of the right hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Hoon) and the noble Lord Mandelson were also put forward, although Ministers have the opportunity to deny that if it was not the case-if Lord Mandelson's name was not put forward. There is an icy stillness on the Government Benches. If it is true that, unlike the Foreign Secretary, the First Secretary of State was happy to be nominated as the High Representative, it is an important piece of information that the second most senior member of the Government was happy to depart the Government at this point. This would be not merely a rat leaving the ship, but the Lord High Admiral himself looking for a raft-although we are reluctant to suggest additional titles in case he is tempted to adopt them.
Although I suspect it is not the case that Lord Mandelson will succeed in displacing the Foreign Secretary, I invite hon. Members on the Labour Benches to agree with me that it would be inappropriate in the 21st century for the British Foreign Secretary not to be a Member of the House of Commons. I can see a few brave hon. Members-
Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab) rose-
Mr. Hague: Oh, here is someone who missed out on being the High Representative-the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. MacShane).
Mr. MacShane: I very much agree with the last point-that the Foreign Secretary should sit in this House.
We always enjoy the Mandelson speech from the shadow Foreign Secretary-I hope there is a lot more of it to come-and we always enjoy the European Union speech from him, because he always confuses it with the Oxford union. Can he tell the House whether he had any contacts at all with the ruling centre-right parties of Europe on those two appointments?
Mr. Hague: Yes, I very much had contacts with the ruling centre-right parties and the ruling socialist parties around Europe. I took the trouble to contact all of them and it turned out that many of them agreed with the view that I put to them that Tony Blair should not be nominated as president of the European Union. It turned out that there was widespread agreement on that, and the right hon. Gentleman was left floundering over there in Europe, finding out what it was like to be marginalised in Europe.
Mr. Hague: I think that is enough from the right hon. Gentleman. Marginalised he will remain.
The Foreign Secretary has denied the reports in the French media that there was a deal with the French Government that in return for Lady Ashton's appointment
as High Representative, the Government would agree to a French appointment to the internal market portfolio. Indeed, I received a letter from the Foreign Secretary today saying that such portfolios are a matter for the President of the Commission solely. It showed a certain touching innocence to think that there are no informal negotiations among national Governments about what portfolios are held in the Commission.
The Defence Secretary probably will not get into this later, but I hope Ministers will be able to say whether it is expected that a French candidate will be given the internal market portfolio, and whether assurances are being sought from the Commission and the French Government that if that happens, the single market will continue to go forward, and that liberalisation, particularly in services and energy, will continue to go forward. I hope we will be told whether assurances are being sought about the position of financial services and whether financial services will be included in the internal market portfolio. These are important considerations for the British national interest.
We wish Lady Ashton well in her appointment, but it would be a very serious matter if the price of adopting the Government's third choice as High Representative meant that policy on the internal market and on financial services, in particular, was taken in a direction that was not in keeping with the interests of Britain. The Foreign Secretary says that a deal was not done, so we want to know what assurances are being sought on whether the policy will continue to go in the right direction, and what the implications might be for the City of London.
In summary, the Government spent too long promoting Tony Blair as president of the EU when they were not able to win widespread support for him, even among the socialists; they gave insufficient attention to protecting this country's interests by not going for a senior economic portfolio in the Commission; and they have ended up with their third choice as High Representative, after falling out among themselves over who should go for it, and the First Secretary of State being willing to abandon the Government to go for it himself. That is a pretty sorry state of affairs in the Government of this country.
We are in many ways pleased that the Foreign Secretary has stayed in post, because there has been enough ministerial chaos in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. This is a serious point, because it might be thought that a degree of experience, expertise and continuity in the conduct of foreign policy would be a good thing. However, in the two and a half years that the Foreign Secretary has held his office, he has gone through 14 junior Ministers, none of whom has been with him throughout, and there have been 12 Europe Ministers in 12 years.
Mr. Hague: Oh, there may be a 13th.
The most recent Europe Minister, Baroness Kinnock, lasted only a few months. Appointing her on 5 June, the Prime Minister said:
"Glenys...is an excellent Minister for Europe...remember this is about preparing for European Councils, people who will get on with the governments and the rest of the country and persuade them to do things. She's an excellent appointment."
Yet, three months later, the Prime Minister's spokesman described her low-profile removal as "internal housekeeping", saying that it was a
"sensible move for both Ministers involved as they both had experience in the subjects"
of Europe and Africa. He was asked what specific African experience Baroness Kinnock had, and the report of his answer states:
"He did not have the details in front of him so it was best to speak to the Foreign Office for details."
That is how things have been moved around.
Lord Malloch-Brown, the wise eminence-I do not know how the Foreign Secretary has managed without his wise eminence, actually-resigned in July, not long after he admitted what we all know to be the truth: that there is a shortage of helicopters in Afghanistan. He said that the political future for Labour "looks incredibly bleak," chiming in with another of the GOATs, Lord Digby Jones, because the marvellous things about this Government is that the GOATs not only resign, but wander around the pastures bleating afterwards. Lord Jones described his former colleagues as
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