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Mr. Stephen O'Brien: This is a very important group of amendments, because we have been discussing the preparedness of the Government-their having a thorough understanding of the technical detail in advance of laying this before the House. In respect of seeking a derogation from compliance, under the Human Rights Act 1998, to the European convention on human rights, the Government have yet to convince us. Therefore, we will seek to divide the Committee, not least because of all the arguments of reinforcement put forward by my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell), who is a former Secretary of State, and also because the Minister did not give a sufficiently robust answer on the cost-benefit question-on the argument about just 2,000 people benefiting from this, weighed against any increase in access.
Mr. Tom Clarke: Only at the end of the debate was reference made to the cost of the bureaucratic set-up for local authorities. Has the hon. Gentleman consulted local authorities about the labyrinthine implications of contributing to an annual report? Would the money not be better spent on the needs we have identified?
Mr. O'Brien: As the Minister has said, additional data collection of some nature will have to be done. The scale of that will have to be measured against the need to make sure it is efficient. However, the blunt truth is that local authorities have been consulting us, and expressing their anxiety and concern about the drafting of the Bill.
However, we wish to divide the House on amendment 31 on human rights convention compliance. The Government have not made a good enough case. It is very important that we test the opinion of the Committee, not least because all of us as legislators have a fundamental duty to get this specific aspect of the Bill right, and we want to give the many experts in the other place the opportunity to discuss it, and we also want them to see that all the arguments have been fully aired. The Government have such a weak case that we need to record our concern. That is why I shall press the amendment to a Division.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The Committee divided: Ayes 197, Noes 287.
AYES
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Amess, Mr. David
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr. John
Barrett, John
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bottomley, Peter
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bruce, rh Malcolm
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Cameron, rh Mr. David
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Duncan, Alan
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr. Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Gray, Mr. James
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holmes, Paul
Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Howell, John
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Hunter, Mark
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Lamb, Norman
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
Maude, rh Mr. Francis
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McCrea, Dr. William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mulholland, Greg
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rennie, Willie
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rowen, Paul
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, David
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Sir Robert
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr. Edward
Tredinnick, David
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Sir Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Mr. Roger
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
James Duddridge and
Jeremy Wright
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Bain, Mr. William
Baird, Vera
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, rh Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fisher, Mark
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Gwynne, Andrew
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, rh John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hood, Mr. Jim
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, rh Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, rh Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Price, Adam
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, rh James
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Ryan, rh Joan
Salter, Martin
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Taylor, Ms Dari
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Twigg, Derek
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Williams, Hywel
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Mark Tami and
Mrs. Sharon Hodgson
Question accordingly negatived.
Mr. Stephen O'Brien: I beg to move amendment 17, page 1, line 21, leave out from beginning to end of line 2 on page 2.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Michael Lord): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment 18, page 2, line 1, leave out 'undergoing' and insert 'undertaking to undergo'.
Amendment 19, page 2, line 1, leave out 'a' and insert 'at least one'.
Amendment 20, page 2, line 2, at end insert-
'(4CA) Any process under subsection (4C) may not be contingent on the activity of, or acquiring, a carer.'.
Amendment 21, page 2, line 2, at end insert-
'(4CA) The process under subsection (4C) shall be available to any person with care needs according to guidance issued under section 7(1) of the Local Authority Social Services Act 1970.'.
Amendment 43, page 2, line 4, at end insert-
'(4E) Provision by virtue of subsection (4B) may for the purposes of this section not require the recipient of care to undergo the process defined in subsection (4C) if, in the assessment of a registered medical practitioner, the life expectancy of the person is such that the process will be limited or no benefit, or detrimental to the health of the patient, or will not alter their care needs.
(4F) Provision by virtue of subsection (4B) may for the purposes of this section not require the recipient of care to undergo the process defined in subsection (4C) if, in the assessment of a registered practitioner, the process will be of limited or no benefit, or detrimental to the health of the patient, or will not alter their care needs.'.
Mr. O'Brien: Amendment 17 would remove new subsection (4C) and amendment 18 would change the word "undergoing" to something that we think will improve matters. I shall have explained where the Committee's opinion may best be tested by the time I conclude my remarks.
The Committee will see that, once again, the Government are falling over themselves in the drafting of this clause. Bad drafting is of course indicative of bad legislation, and the circumlocutions in this provision are a mark of the Government's political motives, which we have already discussed. How would a lawyer define, for instance, a
"process designed to maximise the person's ability to live independently"?
Marriage would seem an obvious example of such a process, but I cannot imagine for a second that we will have local authorities mandating that. This is, of course, a legislative reference to reablement. I am not convinced, in truth, that reablement needs to be on the face of the Bill. It does not need legislation to make it work, of course, and surely that should be the test of access to the statute book.
8 pm
More worryingly, the way that the Bill is drafted means that it does not allow a local authority to refuse to provide care until the reablement process has occurred. For example, let us say that Mrs. X has suspected critical needs. She applies for an assessment, which takes three weeks-that is not unusual. She is told that she needs reablement, specifically a stair lift and a walk-in bath, which might normally take a further month to purchase and install-let us hope so. It is January, and the council's budgets are tight, so it slows down the process in the knowledge that it does not have to start funding her until the reablement has, in the terms of the proposed new subsection, been undergone. Mrs. X has three months without the care that she needs. That is a legally enforceable event under the Bill as drafted, hence my criticism.
Will the Minister confirm whether the Bill would take precedence over section 47 of the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990, notably subsection 1(b), which states that a local authority must make a decision as soon as an assessment is carried out, and subsection 5, which does not
"prevent a local authority from temporarily providing or arranging for the provision of community care services for any person without carrying out a prior assessment"?
The Minister has confirmed in answer to a parliamentary question that
"there are uncertainties about the long-term impact of re-ablement on the need for care, we cannot make an accurate forecast at this current time."-[ Official Report, 14 December 2009; Vol. 502, c. 764W.]
So much for evidence-based policy. Amendment 18 is the amendment that the Committee might want to see tested.
Amendment 19 asks how many rounds of reablement people will get. In a response to a parliamentary question, the Minister said:
"There are currently no proposals to restrict packages of re-ablement."
"It will be for councils to determine who might benefit from this intervention and whether it is appropriate to repeat this at a later date."-[ Official Report, 8 December 2009; Vol. 502, c. 291W.]
Does that mean that the Government will fund reablement that goes outside the indicative grants to local authorities?
Amendment 20 would prevent reablement from including an informal carer. Will the Minister confirm that reablement will never include an obligation on a family member to take up informal caring responsibilities? Returning to the question of personal care, it seems that carers will continue to be taken into account in the assessment of whether someone has critical needs. The Government's estimate is that only 50 per cent. of carers for people with critical needs and only 5 per cent. of carers for people with moderate needs will give up that informal care when they see that if they do that, care will be provided free of charge. Do such small figures hold water when it comes to the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell) earlier?
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