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12 Jan 2010 : Column 221WH—continued
There are 3,000 Kurdish children in detention in Turkey and there has been a significant number of arrests of Kurdish politicians. For example, there has been the arrest of Ahmet Turk, whose surname is itself an irony, because it shows how someone's own language or nomenclature cannot be used, and the arrest of Aysel Tujluk. That situation means that there is a clever
political arrangement whereby the number of Kurdish representatives in the Turkish Parliament is taken below the required 20, such that the party cannot operate any more.
When one thinks about the violent forced evacuations of Kurdish villages that took place in the 1990s, one can understand why Kurds might feel the temptation to be very aggressive on these issues. However, it is encouraging that Ocalan, who has been put into even worse solitary confinement conditions, is urging his colleagues to go down the constitutional route. It is also encouraging-although there may be a repeat of previous experience-that a new party, the Peace and Democracy party, will be launched on 1 February.
There are obviously many implications for the whole region. Many of us also have Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot minorities in our communities. I was very pleased to meet the Greek Cypriot Democratic Rally leader, Nicos Anastasiades, because obviously there is also an issue in relation to Cyprus. It is encouraging that, in many ways, Turkish Cypriots are now moving closer.
We should encourage Turkey to take a very positive view of tolerance of Kurdish language rights and other rights. Furthermore, through the European Union, we should encourage Turkey to respond to the issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink). The EU should say that a condition of EU membership for Turkey must be the proper economic development of south-east Anatolia, so that the inequalities that exist there are dealt with.
Let me now move on to talk about other countries. In Iran, it is disturbing that although Kurdish people are very willing to work with the state, there is arbitrary arrest and in reality we face the situation of judicial killing. One such judicial killing has already taken place and 12 other Kurds are on death row. In Syria, quite clearly there is much arbitrary detention and torture.
As for the KRG, it is a story of great success. One of the reasons for that is the visionary way that John Major acted, to ensure that there was no bombing of northern Iraq after the first Gulf war. However, there are still many important issues and concerns. One is where the writ of Kurdistan runs to. Does it include some areas around Mosul-not Mosul itself, but some villages around Mosul that in reality are more Kurdish than Iraqi? There is also the important issue of having a proper oil revenue-sharing agreement, so that there is the best possible investment in the area.
As a country, we have a real interest in and concern about the amount of trade that we can do in the area. To some extent, we are being overtaken by the Germans, the Scandinavians, the Italians and, of course, the Turks. In many ways, many organisations that invest in Kurdistan are actually partially owned by parts of the Turkish army. We have a great interest in ensuring that we do our best. I am sure that good work is done by the embassy representation in Erbil, but there might be advantage in having Department of Trade and Industry representation there as well.
I have one particular interest. It is not a personal interest, but I have a long-standing friend with an interest in the provision of a direct air link between London and Erbil. Currently, the journey is expensive and is normally made via Vienna. I understand that the UK is not happy to have direct flights back due to
security issues, but the issue could be resolved by making greater provision for air marshals on such trips and by investing properly.
There have been great controversies in the House about the KRG's approach to minorities. Early-day motions have been tabled about the treatment of Christians and the prospective expulsion of Christians and Assyrians from the KRG area. That might be due partly to the fact that there has been a great deal of confusion about property rights post-Saddam. I would be interested to know the Government's view. To what extent do such issues exist within the KRG area? The Bishop of Croydon has certainly spoken out on the persecution of Christians there as an issue of concern. However, we must not let that blind us to the fact that the KRG has been especially successful, although we must be worried about further political shootings as a result of the tensions arising from the elections this March.
What are the Government doing to persuade Turkey of the poor merits of banning the DTP? What pressure are they bringing through the European Union to ensure that if Turkey is given entry, the rights of Kurds will be protected fully? Would we consider observing elections properly, in Kurdistan, in Iraq and in Turkey, to ensure that Kurdish rights are protected fully? What can be done to promote our trade interests in Kurdistan and encourage direct flights to Erbil? Finally and perhaps most controversially, what does the Minister think would be the advantages of pushing for the release of Ocalan so that we could have a constitutional rather than terrorist-based settlement for Kurds within Turkey?
1.12 pm
Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): I congratulate the hon. Member for Croydon, Central (Mr. Pelling) on securing this debate and thank him warmly for his generosity in allowing me to make a short contribution. I chair the all-party parliamentary group on the Kurdistan region in Iraq, and, as he said, I have just returned from my first visit there.
The year 2003 brought liberation for the people of the Kurdistan region of Iraq, who made up the only Iraqi force that fought alongside British and American forces. However, I believe that the UK has overlooked Kurdistan, the most secure and successful region of Iraq, undermining the whole country's renewal and hindering British commercial and political objectives.
Politicians and businesspeople whom I met were mystified and disappointed by the British Government's behaviour since liberation. As the Prime Minister said to me, Kurdistan is the success of UK policy, yet the policy has not involved equal treatment for all the people of Iraq. The UK has been reluctant to develop our relationship with the Kurdish region for fear of causing problems with the majority Arab population, and its continuing improvement and success in the development of democracy and the security of the people is not being embraced as a model for the wider region. Instead, the British Government's failure to update their understanding of the security situation in the region has damaged British interests.
Trade must be a greater priority in Iraqi Kurdistan. Companies investing there can later expand their operations to the south. For many British and other companies, Kurdistan is now the only part of Iraq that is truly open
for business; the rest is only partially open, although I hope that it will catch up with Kurdistan as soon as possible. Kurdistan's political, civic and business leaders have long appealed for such links. They appreciate the quality and expertise of British companies and institutions and wish to be our political and security ally.
As the hon. Gentleman said, we have fallen behind a number of other European countries. There has been no official UK ministerial trade mission. The trade missions that do go to the region have no support from UK Trade and Investment. The embassy office in Kurdistan's capital, Erbil, is understaffed compared with other missions and marooned many miles from the capital, although staff recognise the opportunities and do their best to deal with the inadequacies of the situation.
Many people mentioned the problem of visas. Chambers of commerce members whom we met told us that business people from Kurdistan travel regularly-sometimes twice a month-to other parts of Europe, but that travel to Britain is difficult and that obtaining a visa involves going to Amman.
The hon. Gentleman discussed the issue of Christians in the region. As a practising Methodist and chair of the all-party Methodist group, I focused in depth on the position of Christians in the Kurdistan region, as many have fled from the rest of Iraq. I had detailed discussions with the Bishop of Erbil and Mr. Sarkis Aghajan Mamendu, a former deputy Prime Minister who has led the efforts to protect and promote the interests of Christians in the Kurdistan region. Both men told us that the Kurdistan regional government takes an active role in not only ensuring the rights of Christians but offering a safe haven to Christians fleeing persecution from other regions of Iraq. I commend the region for its generosity in welcoming Christians and protecting their position.
Bob Spink: I have been to the region on a number of occasions and seen for myself the efforts of the government to discriminate in favour of Christians in order to show their tolerance, such as digging water wells, rebuilding villages and schools and allowing churches. There are problems, but the government are making great strides and efforts to tolerate Christianity.
Meg Munn: Indeed, I would say support Christians, not just tolerate them.
I was impressed by the Parliament's interest in developing democracy. With the help of Gary Kent, who supports the all-party group, I gave two seminars to more than half the MPs from the Kurdistan Parliament. They want to develop their understanding of democracy further. One main concern in Kurdistan is the need for a census. No accurate census has been taken for the best part of 50 years. It is important for all aspects of public policy planning, but it is also crucial to fairness in the allocation of seats in the Iraqi Parliament. There is concern that the forthcoming census will not be done fairly, so technical help from Britain is requested.
Finally, on women's rights, the leaders in Kurdistan have taken a brave stance on problems common in the middle east, such as so-called honour killings and female circumcision. I acknowledge their leadership in such matters. I also met members of the women's committee of the Sulaymaniyah provincial council. They have
made great advances in establishing the concerns of female council employees, challenging sexual harassment and creating a crèche. Their practical radicalism stands out in the middle east, where women's interests are normally way down the political agenda. I look forward to hearing my hon. Friend the Minister's response to those issues.
1.18 pm
The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): I congratulate the hon. Member for Croydon, Central (Mr. Pelling) wholeheartedly on securing this debate on a subject that has not been debated for many years, except as a subsidiary to other debates on Turkey, Iraq or Iran. The issue is an important one that probably needs more than half an hour to amplify.
I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), who knows many of the ins and outs of the issues because she used to be in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and was much respected when she was there. I know that she does a good job with her all-party parliamentary group, as does my right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd). Between the two of them, they have managed to establish a better parliamentary relationship than we have with many countries within the European Union. I pay tribute to them because that is of considerable benefit to the region and it informs politics in this country.
There are clear UK interests in the region. First, as has been mentioned, many UK companies are active in Iraq, Turkey and Iran and many companies would like to be more active. We would like to be able to provide more assistance. The hon. Member for Croydon, Central made a good point about the need to beef up our effort in terms of UK Trade and Investment and our presence. We do not want all the business to be hoovered up by the Germans or French.
Secondly, there is a clear UK interest because we want peace and stability in the region. The contribution many young men and women in our armed forces made in Iraq was important to this country's stability and security. We want to ensure that we do not have to go back to Iraq. Ensuring that there is stability and long-term economic prosperity in the Kurdish region of Iraq is therefore vital.
I will go through the countries that have large Kurdish communities. The hon. Gentleman referred to Turkey. He is right that we want to see Turkey as a member of the European Union. We think that that would be good for the UK. It would be good to have a secular, Muslim country in the European Union and we do not believe that Europe should be a Christian club, as some people have called it. Incidentally, that forgets the history of countries such as Spain, where Moorish influence is significant in thought, culture and architecture. We also believe that Turkey's membership of the European Union will be vital because it is probably the Asian tiger on our doorstep. It is also a country that helps to guarantee our security against terrorism and international criminality, and our energy security. It is therefore vital.
We do not want Turkey to join the European Union at any cost. It will not be able to do so unless it complies fully with the acquis communautaire. There is a great
deal of work it still has to do on human rights and a range of elements of its legal system to ensure that the Turkey that joins the European Union can be a proper member of it. A line from a song in "Guys and Dolls" says:
"Marry the man today and change his ways tomorrow."
That cannot be done with a country that is applying to join the European Union. We must be sure that the changes have been introduced before it joins.
The Kurdish issue in Turkey is one of the key issues that must be resolved effectively before Turkey can accede to the Union. There are other issues such as Cyprus, but the Kurdish issue is key. We were concerned when, on 11 December, the Turkish constitutional court closed the DTP, the Kurdish nationalist party. That is why we supported strongly the European Union statement that expressed concern. Things have moved on since then. Ahmet Turk said that the 19 DTP MPs will return to Parliament as BDP-Peace and Democracy party-members. We welcome Interior Minister Atalay's remarks about moving towards greater democracy and resolving the issues.
We support the tackling of the terrorist threat posed by the PKK. However, it must be possible to distinguish between nationalism that depends on the use of violence and terrorism and believes in violent overthrow, and the legitimate political aspirations of individuals who want to see a different political outlook. I am visiting Istanbul this weekend and will have meetings with my opposite number, Mr. Bagis. I look forward to having discussions with him on these issues and about Turkey's eventual accession to the European Union, which I am hopeful about.
The hon. Member for Croydon, Central and my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley rightly raised Iran. The human rights situation in Iran is horrific, not only for Kurds, but for many other people. Not only are we wholeheartedly opposed to the use of the death penalty, but the judicial process that leads to its use in Iran is completely flawed. The death penalty is still used for minors, despite Iran being signed up to international obligations that prohibit its use for under-18s. That shows that even though Iran has signed up, it is not complying, and that it has a casual disregard for human rights. We have raised that point on at least 20 occasions, specifically in relation to the situation faced by Kurds in Iran.
On Iraq, the Kurdistan regional government is established in the constitution. Last March saw the successful visit of Massoud Barzani to this and other EU countries. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley and my right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley have had regular conversations with the KRG. There has been significant progress on a great number of issues.
One issue on which there is progress to be made is female genital mutilation. The German non-governmental organisation WADI-Association for Crisis Assistance and Development Co-operation-reckons between 75 and 85 per cent. of women are subjected to female genital mutilation. We take that seriously and want to address the problem which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley. The KRG has said that it wants to hold a conference soon on that issue and we are keen that that should happen swiftly. We stand
ready to assist in making it happen. There are deeply entrenched cultural views that must be addressed; it is a long-term issue that obviously cannot be changed overnight.
My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley raised the issue of visas. People in the Kurdistan region of Iraq undoubtedly face significant difficulty in doing business and travelling. I am certain that that harms the ability of people in the UK to do business. As I am sure she will acknowledge, there are significant security issues over whether we will provide a full visa service in Iraq. We are looking at whether we can bring about changes, but I cannot announce anything now.
The hon. Member for Croydon, Central raised the issue of elections and whether we will be monitoring them closely. He was right. We are of course delighted that there have been successful rounds of elections in Iraq. Many people thought that that would never happen. Indeed, some people in the UK thought it was inappropriate for us to try to bring about a democratic Iraq. I disagree with those people. It has been a pleasure to see that the effort of British troops in Iraq has secured what have generally been reckoned to be decent rounds of elections, although they have not by any means been perfect.
The hon. Gentleman is right that we must ensure that the conditions of elections are improved. We will monitor that closely through our embassy and consular staff in Baghdad, Erbil and Basra. We want to report back on that. I am sure that the all-party parliamentary group will take a keen interest, as will the hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley and my right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley.
Abdullah Ocalan's imprisonment in Turkey has been raised. I was not sure whether the hon. Member for Croydon, Central was calling for him to be released. That is a matter for the Turkish authorities. However, the state of Turkish prisons and the access available for international visitors are of international concern. Although in general the conditions in Turkish prisons are far from ideal, they have improved somewhat in recent years. We want to see further improvements, and I will raise that with my counterpart when I am in Istanbul this weekend.
Local Radio
1.30 pm
Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): May I say at the outset how pleased I am to have obtained the opportunity to initiate this debate and how pleased I am to see that the Minister is here to reply to it?
My motivation in seeking the debate is a series of concerns that have been put to me by a number of local radio operators, particularly by the Shetland Islands Broadcasting Company, which operates in Shetland. In the Northern Isles, we have the benefit of two very effective commercial local radio stations and two BBC radio stations-Super Station Orkney, BBC Radio Orkney and BBC Radio Shetland are the other three. I mention that because for communities with a strong sense of identity, the existence and operation of local radio stations is, as is the case in many communities, an important part of our local ethos and identity. We should be careful before we make changes that may in some way operate to the disadvantage of those stations. Recently, there has been a trend for a diminution in the scope available to local newspapers, and it would be unfortunate if local radio stations were to go the same way.
I want to talk about the future of local radio in the broadest sense, but I will be talking mostly about the switchover to digital radio. As we are also discussing the future of local radio, I should say that if local radio is to have a future, government at all levels will have to be a bit more careful about how they use it. When I was preparing for the debate, SIBC brought to my attention the decision of the Scottish Government to let the radio advertising for their Christmas drink-drive programme through the big boys. As a consequence, SIBC-a very small, genuinely local, independent service, which is the only commercial service that would carry the adverts in Shetland-was excluded from such coverage. That sort of sloppy thinking in government will have to change if local radio is to have a future.
Mr. Lee Scott (Ilford, North) (Con): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a number of these small independent radio stations, such a Time FM in my own area, serve a niche market that is perhaps not served by their bigger neighbours-some of the BBC stations-and that they will need financial help to try to accommodate the new technology?
Mr. Carmichael: Yes, I do think that-although I do not necessarily agree with the point about financial help, which is a different matter altogether. The hon. Gentleman is right to mention the nature of local radio stations. I should point out that several hon. Members are present for this debate in Westminster Hall today, which reflects the fact that the subject excites a wide-range of interest. Had I realised how wide the interest was when I applied for the debate, I would have probably applied for a 90 rather than a 30-minute debate.
Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD) rose-
Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
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