Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
13 Jan 2010 : Column 242WHcontinued
Mr. Evans:
I met a group of young people from China who came to the House when visiting the United Kingdom. They met representatives of the British Youth Council, of which I am an honorary president. Does
my hon. Friend believe that the bonds can be cemented most effectively by young people from China visiting the United Kingdom and vice versa? When the young people I referred to were talking together in the Jubilee Room, not far from this Chamber, one could tell that the interests of the young people from both countries were very much in common.
Tony Baldry: Of course. That is absolutely right. My daughter was fortunate enough to learn Mandarin at school and spent a large part of her gap year in Beijing, which substantially enhanced her insight into China and the younger generation of Chinese citizens. Young people from the two countries communicate at a perfectly good level, and that is all good strengthening stuff.
We must all accept that in the 21st century we live in a world where China is becoming an increasingly powerful nation. It is a civilisation state. It is increasingly powerful economically and in terms of global politics. It therefore behoves both the Chinese and ourselves to understand much better what the other is saying. It is not for us to tell China what form of democracy-what form of government-it should have. I hope that China would see that it is in its own interest to have the greatest possible access to information and that censorship is eventually self-defeating. I hope that China will come to realise sooner rather than later that bearing down on individuals' human rights is also self-defeating because ultimately, as we have seen in the Soviet bloc and elsewhere, the human spirit will eventually overcome such restrictions.
However, it behoves us to make every effort better to understand China's position and it behoves China to seek to understand our position. That is also important in ensuring that the Foreign Office and the Treasury recognise that the Foreign Office must have the resources necessary to ensure that the embassy in Beijing and consulates elsewhere can have the resource to communicate with their opposite numbers, and that we have information and decent informed discussion with the Chinese. Otherwise, we shall have future tragedies of failed international conferences such as Copenhagen, and the world-the future of civilisation-simply cannot afford other failed Copenhagens.
Derek Wyatt (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) on introducing what is yet another debate about China. It always grieves me that these debates have to be in Westminster Hall. Yesterday we had a debate about the Goldstone report-a really critical debate about Palestine. Where was it? It was in Westminster Hall. There were so many hon. Members here that not everyone could be called to speak. I ask that the Government sometimes rethink their priorities on foreign affairs.
Let me make a couple of points in response to the hon. Gentleman's speech, much of which I agree with. He did not say much about the World Bank or the International Monetary Fund, but we need to move faster on China's membership of both bodies. After all, Belgium and Luxembourg have more votes than China on both, and we know their GDP is much bigger than China's-[Laughter.] If we do not move faster, the time will come when America and the rest of the world want
the dollars that are in Beijing and Shanghai, but China will say, "Do you know what? We don't like your banking systems. We don't like your IMF and World Bank. We'll set up our own system." We should not think that they will not do that.
One of the big issues that we misunderstand is that the Chinese-much like Israel-do not need the western world as much as the western world thinks that it needs them. If the Foreign Office misunderstands that, the consequences will be very serious. One way in which we could be more proactive is by saying that although it might have been right in 1945 for the World Bank, the IMF and the United Nations to be in Washington and New York, it is not right today. One thing that we could do is move one of those organisations to China. If China is to be the world's leading economic power by 2020, it is incumbent on us to help it with its political understanding of the world, and moving an international organisation there will move Chinese diplomacy on light years.
I make that point in the light of discussions about Google last night and this morning. When Google went into China, it agreed to censorship rules that went against America's first amendment, which is a completely back-to-front philosophy for Google's owners to adopt, given where they come from, their background and the fact that the company's chief executive is a Republican. In any case, Baidu, the Chinese search engine, is much bigger in China than Google, so perhaps this is not about the number of attacks on Google. After all, Google is the greatest technology company in the world and should be able to handle such attacks, which happen to every company. I think that there are between 5,000 and 10,000 a day-I would love to see the figures-but that, in a sense, is an aside.
On Akmal Shaikh, the real issue was that the trial lasted for just half a day. In relation to China's human rights and the style of its legal system, we are asking the Chinese whether such trials, which create tension between countries, could be open not only to the Chinese public, but to non-Chinese, so that we can see that justice is done. That is the crux of the issue in such cases.
I turn now to my own thoughts about China. I place on record my thanks to the Industry and Parliament Trust, which took me to Shanghai in 2008. In September last year, I also went on an amazing visit to Beijing with the all-party group on China. We made the 25-hour train journey to Tibet, where I learned a good deal more about Tibet. Those who have not understood what is going on in China should consider the fact that Russia and Canada, where the temperature can be minus 20° C, have had trains for considerably longer than China has. However, although the temperature on the railway that we used is sometimes minus 35° C-it goes up to 15,000 feet-the service has not missed a single day, while the services in Canada and Russia both have. In other words, the technology in China is the finest in the world, and we misunderstand how fast things are progressing.
To give another example, more university papers were published in China in the past year than in the whole British university system. If we use such figures for university research to judge universities, China is already ahead of us. The pace of change is substantial, but that change is not just economic; it is fundamental and it is taking place at every level.
In addition to those two visits, I have been to Hong Kong, where I was brought up as a child. Although I am not writing my autobiography, I am working on a major work called "The Foreign Office: A Disaster Abroad in the Twentieth Century". Everywhere I have looked, the Foreign Office has been pretty disastrous. We got the middle east, Africa and India wrong, and if we are not careful we will get China wrong, too. That is partly because the Foreign Office is independent inside Whitehall. If we are to change in the 21st century and hang on to the title of "Great Britain", the Foreign Office will have to grow up and come into the system that exists in this country.
I say that because I have spent a huge part of my life abroad and visited many places. I was a member of the African National Congress. I care enormously about how Britain is perceived abroad. In that respect, I have spoken to our new ambassador in Beijing. As I said in Shanghai, the quality of our people under ambassadorship in China-I will not say that I am deeply distressed about it, because that is the wrong word-needs a fundamental rethink. How can it be right that we have fewer people in the largest country in the world than we do in America? We need to reshape our thinking; we need more consulates in China than in Europe and America. We have said that many times before in this place, but nothing actually changes.
In that respect, the issue of Copenhagen is interesting. The hon. Member for Banbury asked why we had not picked up the feelers and realised how China felt about Copenhagen. Why did we not do that? Is our regime in Beijing big enough? Is it intelligent enough? Did we not meet the Americans and other Europeans in Beijing to discuss China? Did we never have a discussion in Beijing, with our opposition, about Copenhagen? Where were we? Why was the issue allowed to fester? What has changed? We have not had that debate here. We have not asked how China went to Copenhagen without our having used all the soft diplomacy skills that we are supposed to have. Perhaps the Minister can enlighten us on what happened.
On Tibet, I have written to the Speaker, and I have not yet had an answer, although my letter was sent in October. We fundamentally changed our policy on Tibet, as a result not of a debate or a vote in the House, but of a statement. That is not how a democratic Government go about changing policy: if we want to change policy, we have a debate so that those who do not feel comfortable have a chance to put their feelings on the record. In future, I hope that we will not change policy on any part of foreign affairs as a result of just a statement. I say that irrespective of which party forms the next Government.
We have talked about the economic power that China will enjoy by 2020. I have also said that we are pretty under-represented in our foreign embassies and consulates in China. Now, however, I want to come to the issue that is really gnawing at me following my trip to Tibet. On her first official visit after she was nominated, Hillary Clinton said that she and America were downgrading-she did not quite put it like that, but the meaning was clear-America's resolve on human rights in China. That approach is wrong, but it has washed over the rest of the western world. People are thinking, "Okay. If that's America's attitude because they need the trade, maybe we'll follow suit." That is a very dangerous way to go. As the hon. Gentleman said, we
are talking about universal rights, and we should stand up for them. He mentioned Russia, but I could also point out how Poland changed because of one person. These things happen, and we need think only of Solzhenitsyn and his books in Russia. The individual matters, and universal rights are just that-universal.
The issue that concerns me most, however, is Tibet. Lords Steel and Alton have put forward some rather clever ideas about how to cope with Lhasa and the Dalai Lama. If the Dalai Lama dies before the issues of Lhasa and Tibet are resolved, he will die a hero, which will cause even more problems for the Chinese. Italy reached a solution on a similar issue when the Catholic Church was given independence within the state. Lord Alton has proposed that the small part of Lhasa where the two main temples are situated should be the equivalent of the Vatican for the Buddhist faith. I ask the Government to start making representations about resolving the issue, which will fester if we do not resolve it.
We had discussions in Beijing, and I should mention the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Bury, South (Mr. Lewis), who he is not here today, although he is absent for good reason. In the Northern Ireland context the Americans always talked to both sides; in the Sri Lankan Tamil context Archbishop Tutu was talking in Dubai; in the Palestinian and Israeli context the Norwegians were talking for nine months, without anyone knowing. There are ways of coming to resolutions. I ask the Minister to ponder whether President Clinton and former Prime Minister Blair could not be asked to go to Beijing to talk through the matter, given the middle east and Northern Ireland peace talks in which they were involved. When I raised that in Beijing, the official view of the Chinese Communist party officials was that it would be a sign of weakness to involve a third party in their problem. I said that it was a sign of maturity in a growing power if it asked an outsider for help. After all, those meetings are held in deep confidence. I said it would be seen as a strength. I think that we are between two positions: China says Tibet is theirs, and we say it is theirs, but that it belongs to the rest of the world too.
The hon. Member for Banbury mentioned Expo 2010. In some ways, hard diplomacy failed in the last part of the 20th century. We need only look at Iraq and Afghanistan to see that. Even if we were to win in Afghanistan, which seems highly unlikely, what have we left, and how much damage has been done in the region? In the same way, America went into Vietnam. Macmillan's advice was by all means to go in, but to remember that we had the same situation in the Sudan; it cost us £1 million a week and in 1920 we gave it back. He saw that that was exactly what would happen in Vietnam. What will happen in Afghanistan? Exactly the same. We will have spent millions of pounds protecting something that, in the end, will go back to what it was. That is the history of Afghanistan.
My point is that in the 21st century hard diplomacy should be secondary to soft diplomacy. What we have not understood about Joseph Nye's work-and I am pleased that the British Council has invited him here next Wednesday for a major lecture; after all, he wrote "Soft Power" in 1994-is that we have astonishingly good soft power people working for us. They are perhaps the best in the world: BBC radio and television overseas, the British Council and the Open university. The British
Museum is advising museum staff in Beijing. It is in Shanghai and has a major exhibition there and a major part of our Expo exhibition. The British Council is everywhere. However, we ask both those bodies to do more and more for less and less. We have not produced-but I should love the Foreign Office to publish it-a strategy for soft power in the world. We should build on the three British bodies that I have mentioned, which are outstanding in the world-and we have many others-to create the best diplomacy, which is soft diplomacy.
I want to conclude with a few words about the Chinese Ambassador Madam Fu Ying, who is leaving shortly. I have got to know her incredibly well. She is by some way the best ambassador that China has had in the 12 years I have been in Parliament. I have even taken her to Twickenham; show me a Chinese woman who will say "Yes, I'll come to Twickenham"-but then she went to watch rugby union in Australia, too, when she was there. She understands not just hard power but soft power, and has been outstanding, even if we have had our differences on Tibet and human rights. We shall miss her, and we wish her well. Other hon. Members want to speak, but I want to give the message to the Foreign Office to rethink its overall strategy on China.
Mrs. Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): It behoves me too to thank the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) for securing the debate, which comes at a crucial time. I am humbled to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Derek Wyatt), who always speaks with such authority and wisdom. He showed us the point we have reached-when we need to think and to re-examine our relationship with China. It is imperative that we recognise that China has made a strategic shift in the world, and that we must make that shift too.
The hon. Member for Banbury said several times that the Chinese must understand that they have nothing to fear. I would say it is we who must understand and it is we who have things to fear, if we do not recognise the shift in relationships across the world because of the new China, and its position in and view of the world. It is time for us to stop talking to China from the point of view of a parent-child relationship, and to move to an adult to adult relationship, in which rather than telling the Chinese things, we listen actively. I have all too often seen us go into meetings with the Chinese saying we are there to converse, when really we are there to tell.
Mr. Evans: One clear example of the change that has taken place is China's influence in Africa, which we ignore at our peril. Its influence in countries where it has invested a lot of money, and where it is trading and taking many of the raw resources that it needs to help its economy grow, will clearly have effects in the world in the short and long terms.
Mrs. Moon:
The hon. Gentleman is right. There has been a further arrogance in our thinking. We have assumed that we could allow China to move into Africa and that we could watch and almost tolerate its frequent pillaging of natural resources there, particularly its destruction of rain forests and removal of trees, but
that China would eventually begin to see the error of its ways and would think and operate according to the tenets of the west. That is not going to happen. It is time we recognised that and saw the need to form a new relationship and dialogue with China.
There was an excellent article in The Guardian yesterday by Simon Tisdall, and I urge hon. Members who have not read it to do so, because he sets out how relationships with China are turning chilly. There is a huge risk that we shall expect China to work on the same basis of compromise and consensus on which the west has for so long operated, and that we shall fail to see that China does not recognise the need to work on that basis. My hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey talked about Madam Fu Ying, and I endorse every word he said about how she epitomises China's use of soft power. It is virtually impossible to pick a fight with her. She has charm and is calm, amusing and witty, but has a core of absolute strength and an unbiddable determination to have her own way. The velvet glove masks a solid, hard power. The fact is that she will listen, nod and smile, but she will not move. That is what we need to understand. We need to develop a new relationship with China.
There is a saying that "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste". We have had a crisis with Copenhagen; and we have had a crisis with the cancellation of the UK-China human rights dialogue. Let us use those crises, recognising that it is time for us to make a strategic shift from the global dominance of the west. We must find new ways of accommodating the world that is emerging.
Societies are inherently linked to their past, and China is no different. Imperial China depended upon a vastly powerful and infallible centre, as communist China still does. In neither system have human rights, constitutional checks and balances or any form of democracy figured prominently.
China sees the execution of Akmal Shaikh as part of its way of operating. It does not see the need to move into a world of negotiation on human rights matters. There are times when we have to talk differently with China about the place it wants in the world. Part of the problem is that we in Europe are used to consensus. To become a member state of the European Union, there is a set of rules that have to be complied with; those standards have to be met to be a member of the EU. To become a leading power in the United Nations, however, countries do not have to fit in with any rules. They can become leading members, powerful members, of the UN and still ignore human rights. They can ignore consensus. They can go their own way.
We are moving into a new world, which has a new level of sophistication in dialogue. I believe that the Foreign Office can deal with that, but it is time to step up and time to grow. China is understandably very confident about its recent success, but we need to understand how China works. Its leaders are effective technocrats; they are managers, they are pragmatic. They are deliberately uncharismatic compared to some of their predecessors. China has grown fast, and its leaders have been thrust on to the world stage.
Foreign policy did not previously register high on the Chinese Government's agenda, which was to move its economic development forward. Its global mission was to improve its economic position in the world. It has
succeeded, and can now afford to grow its internal markets and put less emphasis on its world markets. China therefore has less need to consider how it is viewed by the west. Economically, it is extremely powerful. It holds the world's financial system in its hands. We need to engage with that new China.
I have found a keenness to improve bilateral understanding between the two countries. The UK-China leadership forum of which I have been privileged to be part for the past few years, held its third meeting at Ditchley park in September last year. The forum brings together political figures and policy makers from both sides to explore an understanding of our respective positions on the key issues of the day. That form of dialogue is immensely valuable, and I hope it will continue and flourish. I hope that those from the top of both Governments will find a new way of talking and communicating to increase understanding on both sides. It is no longer a case of explaining the west to China. China has to take the proactive step of explaining its views to the west and how it sees the relationship with the west.
China is realistic about Copenhagen. It has the greatest problem in the world on climate change. The pace of desertification in China has doubled over the past 20 years; 25 per cent. of the land area is already desert, and air pollution is prematurely killing 400,000 people a year. The country is not unaware of the dangers and risks of climate change.
I said that China's foreign policy is driven by its need for economic development. It is also driven by an appetite for oil. We need to work with China and talk with China about a path for greater resource efficiency and a low-carbon future. We need to support that with shared science and technology, finding new ways of solving the problem together.
Questions have been asked about why we did not understand what China's position would be at Copenhagen. I suggest that it was the usual problem-that we were telling China. We were not listening; we were not being responsive or aware of what it was saying. The balance in the world has changed. It has moved from the G8 to the G20. We need to be aware that China has an increasing level of support in the G20, and that the balance is moving.
China has joined the World Trade Organisation and is a judicious member of the United Nations Security Council, but we need to be aware too of the Shanghai co-operation agreement and its impact on China's relationships with many other countries. That relationship is one in which countries do not interfere in each other's affairs, do not set standards for behaviour and do not demand human rights. However, they offer mutual support, defence and trade. I do not suggest that it is a route that we in the west should follow, but we need to understand the implications for relationships around the world, especially for countries that have joined the Shanghai co-operation agreement.
Next Section | Index | Home Page |