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Mr. Ellwood: I am grateful to the Minister for his kind words. The Ministry of Justice press release comments on retrospective compensation for survivors, not those who have been killed. Can the Minister give some clarity on when the details will come through? He will know that Will Pike was injured in the Mumbai attacks.
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He is in a wheelchair and has had to set up a charity to make ends meet. I know that he would be grateful for an answer.

Mr. Hanson: Those are the very issues that we are looking at. I will table amendments on the issue for consideration in Committee, by which stage we will have further clarity on the points that the hon. Gentleman made. His contribution was important, and I know that my right hon. Friend has also been supportive on the matter.

The second notable aspect of the debate was the fact that, for the first time in my parliamentary life, I agreed with almost every word in a speech made by the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T.C. Davies). He is certainly out of tune with members of his party on DNA, and I will return to that shortly.

There are key aspects of the Bill other than DNA, the first of which is antisocial behaviour, which was raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms Smith) and for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Flello), both of whom made valuable contributions. The parenting orders will be a valuable tool. Antisocial behaviour is also linked to under-18 gangs and injunctions. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough talked about early intervention, which is important, and gang injunctions will make a major contribution towards support for preventing individuals from becoming involved in gangs, which the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Scott) also mentioned.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough also talked about dogs. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is in discussion with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs about the issue but, as he said, the Bill's injunction elements for serious violence will cover dogs.

The Bill addresses police bureaucracy and stop-and-search papers, which were raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) and my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard). I assure them that the ethnicity of a person who is stopped will still be included, but our principle is one of reducing bureaucracy through not only the Bill, but the work of Jan Berry, who produced her report just before Christmas. We will look at the issues raised in detail and, even now, we are taking further steps with Jan on those concerns.

Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000 was mentioned, and as my right hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty) said, it is a valuable tool. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and I were both disappointed with the judgment last week and are in the process of appealing, and if necessary we will consider legislative options to support the retention of that provision so that we can do what the hon. Member for Monmouth indicated-have a random deterrent for individuals in the community at large.

Domestic violence has featured heavily in the debate. Again, my hon. Friends the Members for Sheffield, Hillsborough and for Stoke-on-Trent, South mentioned it, and the hon. Members for Woking (Mr. Malins) and for Monmouth supported the provisions on it. Issues need to be explored in Committee, as the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) mentioned, and I will consider all the points that were made. The hon. Member for Woking asked about penalties, and I gave him some indication of my response. They are
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covered in section 63 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980, which relates to standard financial penalties and imprisonments for a breach of a penalty such as the one set out in the Bill. I shall return to that in Committee. There will be a pilot and we will consider those issues, which are key.

The provisions on air weapons received general support across the board, and I do not need to reflect on them in particular.

Mobile phones in prisons were discussed, particularly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East, who wished that we would do more about them. A penalty of two years for possession of a mobile phone in prison, which will be brought in if the Bill is passed, is severe. It supports previous legislation that we took through in the Offender Management Act 2007 to ensure that it is an offence to bring phones into prison, not just to have possession of them. We have taken further steps on blockers and are considering closely whether we can block signals altogether.

The private security industry has featured heavily. The hon. Members for Banbury (Tony Baldry) and for Ilford, North showed their broad support for the measures in the Bill but expressed the wish to explore them to ensure that they are effective. We will have a compulsory licensing scheme, and in conjunction with the Security Industry Authority we will consider legislation on limiting penalty fees, the regulation of towing, requirements for warning signs and effective and fair complaints processes. I know that not only were those ideas supported in the debate today, but my right hon. Friend the Minister for Regional Economic Development and Co-ordination has been instrumental in undertaking work on them. We will return to them, and we have proposals to do so. We will consider other matters in relation to the industry in due course.

All the issues that I have mentioned have been important, but the key debate has been on the national DNA database. There have been a range of contributions on that, and I think I speak fairly and openly when I say that with the noble exception of that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East, none has been in support of the proposals that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has introduced. I have to say that I believe other hon. Members will be proved wrong in due course by our proposals. We have had to make a judgment, and it was made on the basis of protecting the public, preventing the creation of future victims and ensuring that we meet the obligations that we rightly have under European legal judgments.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East, the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis), the hon. Member for Eastleigh, my hon. Friends the Members for Walthamstow and for Sheffield, Hillsborough and the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy all expressed concerns, which will be debated further and were mentioned in the opening speeches. We have been clear about what we want, and we had previously consulted on the DNA database. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has moved from our original proposals to ones that are the maximum that we can undertake under legal judgments, but that will ensure that the measures in the Bill are fair, proportionate and achieve their objectives.

Our original consultation proposal in May 2009 was a 12-year retention period in a non-conviction case. We have changed that to six years following consultation,
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which is in line with European legal judgments but gives us the flexibility to do what we need, which is protect the public, prevent the creation of victims and bring people to justice. We have similarly moved on the issue of under-18s. We originally proposed retention of six years or until the age of 18, whichever was the sooner, and we now have revised proposals for three years' retention. The Government have listened, but ultimately we have to make judgments. Our judgment in the Bill is that we need indefinite retention of fingerprint and DNA for convicted adults.

Keith Vaz: I am grateful for the way in which the Minister is putting his arguments across. Having listened to the debate, he realises there are still concerns about the Government's proposals. Is he prepared to engage in a discussion in Committee to improve the proposals, some of which, of course, are still open?

Mr. Hanson: As my right hon. Friend knows, I am always willing to listen to debate in Committee because, ultimately, I must carry the Committee with me, but we have made our position clear, and it is based on our judgment about the protection of the public, risk and preventing the creation of future victims.

Our judgment, which is subject to the will of the House tonight and another place in due course, is that convicted adults will have their profiles and fingerprints retained indefinitely; arrested adults will have theirs retained for six years; under-18s will have theirs retained for a range of years, depending on the seriousness of their crime; and in cases involving terrorism and national security, profiles will be retained for life, subject to review by senior police officers. We are doing that because we believe in protecting the public.

I should like to draw the House's attention to three examples of how that has been working to date. Mr. Ali Gudaal was arrested on suspicion of robbery on 16 January 2006. DNA was taken and he was released without charge, yet in June 2009, he was convicted of rape and kidnapping at Coventry crown court. The DNA evidence was fundamental in helping to bring about that conviction. That would not have been allowed under the Opposition's proposals.

Similarly, Matthew Fagan, who was sacked from a London company in 2006, had his DNA taken when he was given a penalty notice for drunk and disorderly behaviour. Ultimately, he was convicted of the murder of a colleague, Cathy Marlow, in his office, on the basis of that DNA evidence.

Finally, Kensley Larrier was arrested in May 2002 for possession of an offensive weapon. The proceedings were discontinued. Ultimately, he was convicted of rape in the north of England on DNA evidence at a later date. To put it simply, we must make a judgment. Our judgment is that six years is within the remit of the court judgment-it pushes the judgment to its boundaries, but this is about ensuring we do all we can to protect the public.

Opposition Members say that they will vote against the Bill on the ground of DNA, but let me remind them that they will also be voting against the provisions on mobile phones in prisons, wheel-clamping licensing, domestic violence orders, helping under-18s in gangs, antisocial behaviour orders and tackling bureaucracy in
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policing. If the Bill does not get a Second Reading, those matters will not be considered in Committee or reach the statute book, and the benefits about which hon. Members have spoken this evening will not be introduced.

I say this to all Opposition Members: DNA is important and we have taken a judgment to ensure that we proceed in a fair and appropriate way for the protection of the public, but ultimately, a vote against the Bill is a vote against all the measures in it. Certainly, I will not let hon. Members who vote against the Bill forget that they did so in the run-up to the forthcoming election, and nor will my colleagues.

The Bill is about making our streets safer, preventing crime against the vulnerable, ensuring that we stop criminal activity, and bringing justice to victims and potential victims through the use of the DNA database. The debate has been extremely useful and I know we will continue it in Committee. We have heard some positive suggestions, including from the hon. Member for Woking, and we will reflect on them. However, on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and my colleagues, I commend the Bill to the House and urge hon. Members to support it.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

The House divided: Ayes 272, Noes 197.
Division No. 42]
[9.59 pm


Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Bain, Mr. William
Baird, Vera
Balls, rh Ed
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, rh Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byrne, rh Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank

Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fisher, Mark
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Patrick
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harris, Mr. Tom
Healey, rh John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, rh Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Lloyd, Tony
Lucas, Ian
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McFall, rh John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, rh Mr. Elliot
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, rh Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purnell, rh James
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Ryan, rh Joan

Salter, Martin
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spink, Bob
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. George Mudie and
Mr. Bob Blizzard

Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Barrett, John
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Browning, Angela
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Conway, Derek
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davis, rh David
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Alan
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evans, Mr. Nigel
Fabricant, Michael
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr. Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harris, Dr. Evan
Hayes, Mr. John

Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holmes, Paul
Howell, John
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moore, Mr. Michael
Mulholland, Greg
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Öpik, Lembit
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penrose, John
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rennie, Willie
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Rogerson, Dan
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr. Edward
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Sir Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Walter, Mr. Robert
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Winterton, Ann
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. John Baron and
Mr. Philip Dunne
Question accordingly agreed to.
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18 Jan 2010 : Column 127

Bill read a Second time.

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