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10 Feb 2010 : Column 300WH—continued
Secondly, my hon. Friend the Member for City of York (Hugh Bayley) mentioned stability, and I share his view. The best forms of stability are always secured when the supporters are fully involved, and we need look only at Barcelona. Germany has also been mentioned,
and 50 per cent. of the clubs there are owned by the supporters, so there is a model. That is why I supported the Government's promotion of supporters' trusts, which is an excellent idea as far as it goes, although even some of the trusts are finding themselves in financial difficulties-Brentford is one example. We need to introduce regulations to reserve 20 per cent. of board membership for supporters' representatives, who would be duly elected from the supporters clubs. In that way, those who actually love and support the club will have a more effective influence over the board.
Thirdly, there is the issue of wages, which is raised with me at every match. Players' wages, particularly in the premiership, are obscene. Players earn in one year what many of my constituents fail to earn in their lifetime. I appreciate that a player's footballing career can be short, but such high levels of pay are not sustainable, and I want to suggest an alternative. The Prime Minister has discussed a Tobin tax on banks and speculation, and I would support a Tobin tax-it has been renamed a Robin Hood tax-on players' wages. If a player was earning more than, say, £2,000 a week, they could pay 5 per cent. in tax, and the money could go towards supporting the development of grass-roots football in the developing world. In a way, that will send a message to clubs that have paid so much for players.
Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I have listened with interest to some of the hon. Gentleman's suggestions. It would be valuable and interesting to examine the one that he has just outlined, but it would surely work only if it was introduced on a European basis, because we cannot have even more of our best players ending up playing for Bayern Munich and Barcelona.
John McDonnell: I fully agree, which is why we should ask UEFA to take the issue up. Actually, Hayes has just bought a Latvian player, but never mind.
The final issue that I want to raise relates to the various reports about corruption. Where money is available on such a scale, corruption will eventually come on the scene. There have been various reports about the level of betting fixing in youth football, and I would welcome news from the Minister about what has happened on that. A review was undertaken, and proposals were made for an integrity unit-it could be part of the Gambling Commission if we could make the commission more proactive. Again, I would welcome information on how far we have got with those proposals to staunch the possibility of corruption breaking out more widely in the sport.
I agree with everyone else that football is too important to be left to the market and to the greed of speculators and others. Returning football to the supporters, combined with a limited amount of regulation, will sustain football in this country in the long term. You never know, we may well win the World cup again.
Sir Nicholas Winterton (in the Chair): Order. I make a plea. There are three Members who want to speak. We can go on for another 15 minutes before I ask the Front Benchers to start. It is a question of self-discipline; if one Member speaks for a long time, he will cut another Member out.
3.16 pm
Mr. Richard Caborn (Sheffield, Central) (Lab): I spent a happy and productive afternoon at Macclesfield football club when I opened its centre for technology and development, which is still being used. I also represent Sheffield, which has the oldest football club in the world, so I have something of a vested interest in this issue.
On political intervention, I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd), which I rarely do. In 2005, when I was Minister for Sport, this country had the presidency of the European Council. We held a meeting in Liverpool with members of the European Commission, Members of the European Parliament and Ministers for Sport from all member states to look at the state of football and how we could address something called the Nice protocol. Heads of Governments had said that sport was different from business and the commercial world, and that it had a specific value, and the question was how to translate that into practice, because there was no legal base in the European Union to help us do so. However, with the support of UEFA, we set up an independent European sports review, which produced the Arnaut report. That resulted in a European white paper and a number of moves from UEFA that I will describe a little later.
There was real concern about how we would tackle sport in the European Union, and that was particularly true of football because its regulations were being settled in the European courts and the Bosman and Charleroi rulings were having a profound effect on how football was being governed. We had to determine whether football was a business, because if it was not, the question was how it would be governed.
Interestingly, there was some political intervention, because Ministers for Sport were looking at the good governance of sport. Rugby league and cricket modernised their governance. Cycling, which was bankrupt, also did so, and its progress has been fantastic from then on in. A whole series of governing bodies looked at themselves and asked, "Are we fit for purpose as we move into the 21st century?"
The FA set up the Burns report and a structural review. Had the report been implemented-Terry Burns said that it was the absolute minimum that the FA would have to undertake to become a fit-for-purpose governing body-we would probably not be facing some of the problems before us. If I make one plea to the Government and sport in general, it is that football should modernise its governance, otherwise we will deal with the symptoms but not the cause, which is the problem that football does not have good governance and good regulation because it has not implemented the Burns report or something like it. Such modernisation will be fundamental if football is to be governed in the way in which many people want.
Mr. Hancock: The right hon. Gentleman was intimately involved in the production of many of these reports. What aspects of the Burns report frightened the administrators in football and prevented them from making the changes?
Mr. Caborn:
Those people did not want to relinquish the power of football to independence. They wanted a board in relation to which there would be the professional
game, the national game and good quality independence that could take an objective view and break the stalemate. That is effectively what we have got-the professional game on one side and the amateur game on the other. We have got the status quo, but that is not good enough. If hon. Members look at the Burns report-I do not have time to deal with it now-they will find that it is a very interesting read. They need to look at what Burns said and where we are now.
On the Arnaut report, I met all the chief executives of the premier league in 2006 and told them that there were excesses. I paid tribute to the premier league and told them that it was the most successful league in the world-it is, by any standards, the best in every conceivable way-but I also said that there were structural weaknesses and excesses. I told the chief executives that they must start to address those excesses in the light of good regulation, and that if they did not actually get into Europe and start influencing the way in which sport and football were regulated, there would be problems down the road. There were problems down the road and the chickens are coming home to roost. If the chief executives had taken action at that time, we would not be in the state we are now.
UEFA was also affected by Arnaut. I will talk briefly about the club licensing system and financial fair play, which will be implemented in Europe in the next two to three years. The six points in the specific objectives for the club licensing system are
"Introduce more discipline and rationality in the club football finances; encourage clubs to compete with their revenues; decrease pressure on player's salaries and transfer fees and limit inflationary effect; ensure clubs settle their liabilities on a timely basis; encourage clubs' long term investments (infrastructure, youth); protect long-term viability and sustainability of European club football."
The proposed measures are the break-even rule, which relates to the financial fair play concept, as well as the
"enhanced overdue payable rule; cash flow analysis; guidance on salaries and transfer spending; guidance on level of debts; limit the number of professional players."
Those measures will have to be implemented by clubs, and if they are not, those clubs cannot play in the European competitions.
I pay tribute to what UEFA has done at a European level. It is acting with more certainty now because, in the Lisbon treaty, sport has for the first time got a legal base. We can therefore, with some justification, go to the Commission and the Council and say that we want the matter to be considered much more effectively. UEFA has found a level of certainty in Europe. FIFA is applying the "six plus five" rule, so I believe that regulation, both internationally and at a European level, is finding its feet and being implemented. Finally, if the FA follows through and implements the Burns report, we will have the type of regulation that we need in this country. We have got such regulation through Europe, and we will get it again through FIFA.
3.23 pm
Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind):
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Sir Nicholas. It is most apposite that the debate is a 90-minute game, but it is unfortunate that you do not have the discretion to add a few extra minutes, as would
happen in an actual football match. It is also most apposite that the debate is being held now, given the problems facing Crystal Palace football club. In the four minutes that I have, I will discuss why that is an important concern.
I am running a petition with the right hon. Member for Croydon, North (Malcolm Wicks) on two issues relating to Crystal Palace. One issue is the 10-point deduction, which was introduced to stop clubs obtaining a competitive advantage by seeking protection from their creditors. That does not apply in Crystal Palace's case, because it has been subject to an involuntary administration that has been imposed due to the actions of a hedge fund that owns Selhurst Park. Unfortunately, the history of Crystal Palace is such that Selhurst Park is held by another company that is also administration, which is partly owned by a hedge fund that does not necessarily have any sentimentality towards the club.
One must have a lot of sympathy with Simon Jordan, the chairman, who sunk £35 million into the club-he is obviously the club's biggest creditor-at a time when play off prospects were sound and the amount of income that could be secured was hugely different. The prospect of the extra income from being in the premiership, compared with being in the championship, has had a distortive affect. It is unfair on players, club staff and the club itself-the fans-that the 10-point deduction is in place, so that is one of the issues raised by the petition that the right hon. Member for Croydon, North and I are running, which will be coming to Parliament.
Lloyds Banking Group is the main lead banker both to the club and the owners of the ground, who are in administration. We are concerned that, within the restrictions of Financial Service Authority rules, the Lloyds Banking Group should try to work to bring the two parts of the club back together. The fact that the group has been acting in a very positive way is encouraging. It has essentially worked to avoid the move into administration, and it has recognised that
"Crystal Palace occupies a special place in the affections of many in South London and if we can play our part in funding a sensible, commercial solution that enables Crystal Palace to have a sound future, then we would be both happy and proud to do so."
That shows that Lloyds Banking Group has a very positive attitude, which is appropriate for a bank that is almost majority-owned by the taxpayer. I hope that supporters and the people involved with the ambassadors club and the fanzines of www.holmesdale.net can perhaps come and see the Minister to talk through some of the issues. I appreciate that he has only a limited amount of leverage, but I would be most grateful if that were possible.
I want to allow the hon. Member for City of York (Hugh Bayley) to contribute, so I shall be brief. I am wearing my Croydon football club tie, and we must not forget those who are in the lower leagues. There are 60 people who watch the matches of my local team and many of us have been disappointed that the local council has not been able to be supportive of the club. Tram construction meant that the practice ground was dumped on five years ago and it has not been possible to use it. Great promises of support were made by the council, but that has not really happened. Dickson Gill, the chairman, does excellent work to keep the club going, and we have great hope about what will happen. Although
great promises are made by the council, as I said, nothing gets delivered. To return to Crystal Palace, there is tremendous support for the petition from 500 people who are very upset about how the club has been treated.
3.27 pm
Hugh Bayley (City of York) (Lab): I am grateful to you, Sir Nicholas, and to colleagues for leaving some time for me to say a few words. I want to speak up for small clubs. My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd) said that Manchester United's turnover in a year is some £280 million, which is enough money to keep York City going for 100 or 200 years. It will probably take us that time to repeat the success of 1995, when York City beat Manchester United 3-0 at Old Trafford, which he was generous enough to acknowledge. That illustrates what has happened to football in the past 10 years. Like the high street, it has split between small businesses at one end and huge multi-million pound enterprises at the other. The Government's policy and the policies of sports' bodies need to show that things have changed.
Some interest has been expressed during the debate in the supporters' trust model, which was how York City football club was saved some 10 years ago. I pay tribute to the help that the club got from the Department and from my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Central (Mr. Caborn). There was a disastrous period when one chairman of the club split the club from the ground, so that if it went under, he would have a property development opportunity. The club was then taken over by John Batchelor. He was a motor racing entrepreneur who ran the club for a season and managed to attract sponsorship of £400,000, which matters to a small club such as York, but when it went into administration at the end of his period, the £400,000 was nowhere to be seen. It disappeared into some motor racing enterprise he had. The supporters' trust rescued the club, and four years later, in 2006, they sold a majority of the club to one of their members, Jason McGill, the current chairman, whose family business had put enough money into the club to rescue it.
If the smaller clubs are to survive, nurture new talent at the grass roots and make an input to their communities-York City FC has been expanding its community programme over the past two years, providing healthy support and training to around 10,000 children and young people in York-the Government must ensure that supporters have a greater say within clubs, as I have said. The Government must look at the business structure of clubs. Perhaps we should follow a mutual model, more like those of building societies, or a co-operative model, rather than a plc model. If we look at how building societies operate, in comparison with the plc banks, we can see the advantages. Although I understand the reservations of someone who represents a large club that generates much income, we need to look at how revenues from television and other sources for this great game are shared to ensure that small clubs remain beautiful so that the whole game can remain beautiful.
Sir Nicholas Winterton (in the Chair): I thank the hon. Gentleman for his brevity, following my request.
3.31 pm
Mr. Mike Hancock (Portsmouth, South) (LD): I congratulate the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Tony Lloyd) on securing the debate, and all Members who have spoken on the support football has received. If the debate were taking place in the Chamber and could last a whole day, it would be full of Members equally committed to both the national sport and their local village, town or city team.
I have followed Portsmouth FC through the divisions when they were close to winning a third championship in the old first division, down to the fourth, all the way back and then into the premiership. The one common factor over those 50-odd years has been the loyalty of the fans. The one thing that has never been taken seriously in football anywhere is the role played by fans and the credibility they give the game. They have undying loyalty and the tribalism of supporting a club through thick and thin, standing on uncovered terraces in pouring rain in the middle of winter to support a team because they want to.
I remember when international footballers used to live down the same street and one would meet them going to the corner shop, and the next week they would be playing for England or Ireland, and Scotland in one case, and it was a pleasure to meet them. Now footballers live in a rarefied atmosphere and it is difficult to see them even on a team bus, let alone out in the street.
Mr. Pelling: Obviously, we should not be jealous of the money that comes with the skills, but is not another effect of big money in the premiership that it undermines our national teams because we have fewer players playing in top-ranking football?
Mr. Hancock: That point is as valid as those that have already been made about football administration. Some players have lost touch with the reality that gives football its strength-the fans. My own club is a classic example.
Mr. Mark Field: Much as I share the hon. Gentleman's passion-I, too, am a long-standing supported of the game-I think that he might be seeing things through rose-tinted glasses. In the mid-1980s, football was at its lowest ebb, well before premiership money arrived, when hooliganism was rife and attendance was at an all-time low. Attendance has increased considerably since then, even though players are paid a lot more. I am not saying that there is not something in what he says, but we must be careful not to allow nostalgia to overtake what is otherwise a reasonable argument.
Mr. Hancock: I do not doubt that football had problems, and Portsmouth had a notoriously bad record for away support troubles, which I would not disguise or deny or do anything other than apologise for, but the loyalty of the fans was always there. They have been, in many instances, totally disrespected by the situations that have arisen.
Portsmouth FC, to catalogue what has happened to it, has had four owners in the past six months. Owner three did not even know that he had lost ownership of the club to owner four, and we did not even know who owner four was. Owner three is now suing owner four to try to get the club back. In the High Court today we heard that we do not owe £7.5 million to Her Majesty's
Revenue and Customs, but in fact owe £11.5 million. We have been lucky enough to secure a seven-day or nine-day reprieve before having to go back to the High Court. To explain why, I will quote directly from the evidence given in court by the barrister representing the club:
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