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3 Mar 2010 : Column 320WH—continued
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael Wills):
I start by congratulating the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) on securing the debate. Since the Land Registry launched the consultation, I
have met a number of hon. Members, including my hon. Friends the Members for Stevenage (Barbara Follett), for Portsmouth, North (Sarah McCarthy-Fry), for Plymouth, Devonport (Alison Seabeck) and for Plymouth, Sutton (Linda Gilroy). I have also received a number of representations from other hon. Members and had exchanges in the House with the hon. Member for Croydon, Central (Mr. Pelling). Later today-very shortly-I am to meet the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark).
I understand all the concerns, including those that the hon. Member for Peterborough has raised here today. This is a very difficult time for the Land Registry. I agree with his remarks about the quality of the Land Registry. The organisation is fundamental to our national way of life. We are a notably-notoriously-home-owning country and the Land Registry plays a fundamental role in that process of home ownership. Most of us have had experience of it at some point, and the overwhelming majority of people are satisfied with their experience of the Land Registry. In my experience as a Minister, it is an extremely well run, well managed and well staffed organisation. That is the case everywhere one goes. It is worth pointing out that, in the customer surveys conducted in 2009, 95 per cent. of customers rated the Land Registry's overall performance as good, very good or excellent. Very few organisations can match that level of customer satisfaction.
Mr. Vara: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way and I shall be brief. Given that the property market is showing signs that it might pick up in the not-too-distant future, and assuming that that will happen, does not the Minister think that now may be the wrong time to get rid of people involved in the property business and in registering property transactions? We do not know when the market will pick up, but it can go only one way.
Mr. Wills: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his gesture of confidence in the Labour Government and their administration of the economy. I am not sure that he altogether intended that compliment, but I accept it.
I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman makes. It has been made by several hon. Members over the past few months. It is important to recognise that the transformation programme is not being driven by the present property market. As we all know, the downturn has been savage, but there are signs that the market is picking up. No one knows quite how far or how fast, but my expectation, like his, is that it will return to growth. However, that is not the only thing driving the transformation programme.
The Land Registry's business is changing. It is an efficient organisation-I referred a moment ago to the level of customer satisfaction-but the organisation is also well managed. I pay tribute to Peter Collis, the recently departed chief land registrar, who was in charge of the registry for many years and during a difficult period of transformation. I am confident that the new chief land registrar, Marco Pierleoni, will be an excellent steward of this precious British institution.
I am sure that all hon. Members here know that the staff of the land registries in their constituencies are committed to their work. Many have served for a long time; for some it has been a family business, with generations of the same family working there. Their
high levels of commitment to the business and of professionalism are widely recognised. In those circumstances, it is particularly difficult for staff to have to go through such a process. We recognise that, as do the Land Registry management, and it is important to put that on the record.
Greg Clark: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I am grateful also for him agreeing to meet me later today. Given the almost family feeling that there has been in the Land Registry over the years, which the Minister acknowledges, is it not invidious that the redundancy arrangements for different offices should be different, when people have served with great distinction in the same organisation for a long time?
Mr. Wills: I would have spoken about that later, but I shall do so now as the hon. Gentleman's remarks have precipitated it. As a Minister, I am responsible for the operations of the Land Registry, but it is a trading fund and is operationally independent. He will forgive me for not commenting on what are essentially operational matters.
Mr. Pelling: I shall try to get away with making two points. Is that not a comment on the way in which British politics no longer works? The Minister is constantly saying that everything is at arm's length, but it means that there is no accountability. If he is accountable, perhaps he should take account of the fact that the Croydon office is shown to have the lowest unit costs in staffing terms. Is not the reality that it is the property portfolio that is driving these decisions, rather than what might be regarded as marginal revenue issues such as the general efficiency of each office?
Mr. Wills: I should congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the way he spliced a set of questions into one rather elegant intervention.
In the time remaining to me, I shall deal with the question of operational independence. I am the Minister and I am accountable. I have taken a keen interest in the process over many months. I have met a large number of parliamentary colleagues and had several meetings with the trade unions involved and with individual members of the Land Registry. I consider myself accountable for the outcome, and I am happy to be held responsible for it.
So far, the arrangements have worked particularly well. We have seen how satisfied customers of the Land Registry are and that it is an efficient organisation. However, it has to change with a changing world. All organisations have to do that. Governments and politicians have to do so, and so does the private sector. That is the world that we live in-a world of rapid change-and good organisations respond effectively and rapidly to that change. That is what the Land Registry is doing.
I am sorry if this seems a bit of a tease, but I have to tell hon. Members that the Land Registry board has considered the consultation thoroughly and taken account of it. I can say from my own knowledge and experience that it has been open and transparent. It has gone into the consultation with a genuinely open mind. It has made its recommendations, which are being considered by Ministers and, as always, by the Treasury. The outcome of the process will be announced very shortly. I hope that hon. Members will pass that information on to their constituents.
I know that it has been a difficult time, but we are approaching a resolution. Ministers and the Land Registry itself are conscious of the need to bring the uncertainty to an end. We understand that it has been destabilising, but it is worth remembering why we are in this position.
The hon. Member for Peterborough referred to the downturn in the property market. It is worth setting out how severe it has been. Transaction levels, which are the key factor for the Land Registry, will have fallen from 16.1 million in 2007-08 to a projected 10 million in 2009-10. The Land Registry receives no central funding because it is a trading fund; it depends on the fees that it receives for services rendered. It made a loss of £130 million in 2008-09 compared with a surplus of about £70 million in 2007-08.
It is a severe problem for any organisation to have to change the nature of its business. The Land Registry has been well run for many years and it has had reserves, but it has to respond to the changing market. No one knows what will happen to the property market, and the trading fund has to be prudent in its approach. However, underlying all that is a fundamental change in the way in which it does business.
It is important to remember that the blueprint for the transformation programme was published nearly four years ago in 2006. It was clear then that the Land Registry would have to become a smaller organisation and deal with its customers differently. An increasing range of services have become available online and there have been improvements in efficiency, as we expect of all public sector organisations.
Mr. Stewart Jackson: The Land Registry cannot have it both ways. It cannot say that we are using the blunt instrument of the Lyons review as a means to weed out the wheat from the chaff. However, on 14 January the Minister wrote to me, saying:
"Consistency with the Lyons Report was one of a range of criteria used in arriving at the proposals."
Will he confirm that Ministers are disregarding the Lyons review-indeed, as we have established, they may be misapplying it-and considering other factors? If so, what are they?
Mr. Wills: If the hon. Gentleman can be patient for a few days more, I will happily take his representations on whether the review is a blunt instrument. I shall be happy to explain then the rationale for the decisions that have been taken. I ask him to suspend his judgment about how blunt an instrument it has been for a few more days; we can continue the discussion then.
Mr. Pelling: I do not want to irritate the Minister, as we are supplicants at his feet, but it would be most unfortunate if the final result was that offices were closed only in the constituencies of Opposition Members, rather than of Government Members.
Mr. Wills: I assure the hon. Gentleman that he will never irritate me. I am never irritated. However, if he will forgive me, I shall give not even a hint of the outcome of the process. All that I can say is that I will be happy to receive further representations on any points once the announcement has been made. Until then, I hope that all hon. Members will suspend their judgment-on blunt instruments, political partisanship and the rest of it. Everything will be revealed shortly.
This matter is fundamentally important. The fact that so many hon. Members are here after the House has risen-for the record, the House has adjourned-shows how important it is. I shall be happy to continue our dialogue once the announcement has been made. I am not saying that I can interfere with it, as the Land Registry is operationally independent. There is no doubt that we are talking about an organisation that is responding flexibly and efficiently to a changing world. The property market is changing dramatically and none of us knows where it will end up. It is important that the Land Registry is in a position to respond efficiently, flexibly and rapidly to change.
5 pm
Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order No. 10(11)).
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