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Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft Norwich and Norfolk (Structural Changes) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 10 February, be approved. -(Helen Jones.)
The House divided: Ayes 249, Noes 171.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Bain, Mr. William
Baird, Vera
Balls, rh Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burgon, Colin
Butler, Ms Dawn
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, rh Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Drew, Mr. David
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, rh Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, rh Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, rh Mr. David
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, rh John
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Jim
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, rh Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, rh Mr. Pat
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McNulty, rh Mr. Tony
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Munn, Meg
Murphy, rh Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, rh Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Lindsay
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Salter, Martin
Seabeck, Alison
Sharma, Mr. Virendra
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheridan, Jim
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andy
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, rh Jacqui
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spink, Bob
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vaz, rh Keith
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, rh Malcolm
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wills, rh Mr. Michael
Wilson, Phil
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:
Steve McCabe and
Mary Creagh
NOES
Afriyie, Adam
Amess, Mr. David
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baldry, Tony
Baron, Mr. John
Beith, rh Sir Alan
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Davies, Mr. Dai
Davis, rh David
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M.
Dorries, Nadine
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Field, Mr. Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francois, Mr. Mark
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Gray, Mr. James
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Herbert, Nick
Hermon, Lady
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Howell, John
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jones, Mr. David
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Leech, Mr. John
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Loughton, Tim
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mulholland, Greg
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
Öpik, Lembit
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Rennie, Willie
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, rh Mr. Peter
Rogerson, Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Rowen, Paul
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Smith, Chloe
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spring, Mr. Richard
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Syms, Mr. Robert
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Thurso, John
Timpson, Mr. Edward
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Sir Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Willott, Jenny
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Tellers for the Noes:
James Duddridge and
Jeremy Wright
Question accordingly agreed to.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the draft Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 (Consequential Amendments) (England and Wales) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 10 February, be approved. -(Helen Jones.)
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
That the Value Added Tax (Buildings and Land) Order 2010 (S.I., 2010, No. 485), dated 1 March 2010, a copy of which was laid before this House on 1 March, be approved. -(Helen Jones.)
Grocery Market Ombudsman Bill (Money)
Queen's recommendation signified.
8.9 pm
The Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships and Consumer Affairs (Kevin Brennan): I beg to move,
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Grocery Market Ombudsman Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of expenditure incurred by the Office of Fair Trading in consequence of the Act.
The Grocery Market Ombudsman Bill was introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) and received a Second Reading on 5 March. It awaits a date for Committee. The Bill provides for the creation of a grocery market ombudsman and sets out a number of rules against which the ombudsman will monitor and enforce compliance with the grocery supply code of practice. It is anticipated that the Bill will result in expenditure being incurred by the Office of Fair Trading, which will be paid out of money provided by Parliament. Accordingly, a money resolution is required so that the Bill may be debated in Committee. I understand that it is supported by all the Front Benchers of all the major parties and was unopposed on Second Reading.
Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): The Minister is supported by most sensible people on both dies of the House. However, can he explain why he is introducing a money resolution and a Ways and Means motion today given that, as far as I know, there is no indication that the Government are going to provide any extra time for private Members' Bills in order to allow this Bill to make progress? That is what is needed.
Kevin Brennan: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman will have to wait and see about that. However, we will, of course, need to ensure that the views expressed by respondents to the consultation are adequately reflected in the legislation that will bring the ombudsman into being. The provision of funding to the Office of Fair Trading for expenditure incurred for enforcement of the grocery supply code of practice is necessary if the aims of the Bill are to be achieved. I commend the resolution to the House.
8.10 pm
John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con): I rise merely to say that Conservative Members are entirely in tune with these provisions. We have already made any points that we wanted to make when the Bill was debated a couple of Fridays ago. I endorse the Minister's point that there is support for it on my side of the House, and we therefore do not propose to oppose the resolution.
8.11 pm
Andrew George (St. Ives) (LD): As my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) said, it is a pity that the Government have not indicated that they will give us the extra time needed to allow private Members' Bills that have support on both sides of the House to proceed. Despite that rather substantial difficulty, I certainly concur with the comments of the Minister and his opposite number. Liberal Democrat Members would like to the Bill to proceed as quickly as possible.
8.12 pm
Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I spoke against this Bill on Second Reading, albeit quite briefly, and my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) spoke against it at greater length. Unfortunately, he is not here this evening because he is with a school party visiting the holocaust memorials in Germany. However, I have been able to communicate with him today by telephone, and I know that he shares my reservations about the financial aspect of the Bill, which is what the resolution deals with-the expenditure of more taxpayers' money.
It is ironic that on the eve of the Budget, when the Chancellor will doubtless reveal that we are seriously in the red as a country and will have to reduce expenditure and increase taxes, we can be thinking of allowing such a provision to go through, perhaps unopposed, on the basis that it is a good idea. Up and down the country, there are families who are saying, "This is desirable, and we'd like to do it, but we can't afford it." When are we going to hear any Front Bencher say, "It may be desirable, and we are in favour of it, but we just can't afford it"? I am contributing to this debate in the hope that in the wind-ups the Minister will explain why, when the Government are in such a parlous position in relation to the economy, they think that the expenditure of money on this proposition is worth while and should go ahead irrespective of whether it can be afforded.
"The OFT must directly fund all the costs associated with the Ombudsman."
One way of avoiding my criticisms of the Bill, certainly as regards its finances, would be to say that the Office of Fair Trading would have to make compensatory savings for any expenditure incurred as a result of its provisions. As I understand it, that is the position that my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) put forward during the Second Reading debate when he said that he wanted a much leaner and meaner arrangement for dealing with this within the OFT itself. Obviously, if the OFT were able to find compensatory savings, there would not be any additional expenditure for the taxpayer as a result of the Bill, and this money resolution might not be necessary.
I took the liberty of having a peek at the OFT's annual report and resource accounts for the last financial year, and I saw that it had a net operating cost of some £56 million. One might have thought that it might be able to find some savings from within that enormous sum of expenditure. I then looked to see whether any of those savings might come from a different remuneration deal for the key players in this organisation, and I saw that last year its chief executive was paid in the salary range of £270,000 to £275,000 and its chairman was paid in the salary range of £170,000 to £175,000. It should not be beyond the wit of the OFT to find some savings to enable the Bill to be carried through without additional cost to the taxpayer.
The Ways and Means motion, which we will discuss shortly, deals with what I think is even worse than a direct imposition on the taxpayer-a back-handed way of forcing up the prices of goods in the supermarkets through a levy on grocery operators. In the meantime, it is for the Government to assert why they believe that this measure is affordable and to explain more than the
Minister has done so far what their intentions are in relation to the future passage of the Bill through this House and the other place. It is not satisfactory to say that there is no more time available for private Members' business, as there could have been if the amendment to the Government's plans moved so ably earlier this year by my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone)-I am pleased to see him in his place-had been accepted. That would have made it possible to have had debates on private Members' business this coming Friday, but that was ruled out by the Government. I hope that in winding up this short debate the Minister will at least tell us whether he has plans for the Bill to proceed with a Report stage and Third Reading in this House before Dissolution.
Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Was my hon. Friend surprised by the speed with which the Minister moved the motion? [Hon. Members: "You missed it!"] That is the point-I missed it because he was so speedy. Is the crux of my hon. Friend's argument that there is no need for this money resolution because savings could be made elsewhere?
Mr. Chope: On too many occasions, the Government try to smuggle business through this House. They seem to be under the impression that because there can be some superficial deal between the Front Benchers, people outside need not be expected to be able to have a say. We know that this Bill is strongly opposed by the British Retail Consortium-
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could now come back to the money resolution.
Mr. Chope: Absolutely, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
One of the reasons why the BRC and other organisations oppose the Bill is that they think that it is going to impose extra burdens on the taxpayer. The argument does not need to be developed at any great length, but it is one of principle. How many people in the House are in tune with people outside in recognising that we are in a dire financial crisis and that the issue of affordability should be taken seriously? In my humble submission, the Bill, however desirable it might be, is unaffordable. That is why I am against the money resolution.
8.20 pm
Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): I rise to make two quick points in opposition to the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope). Having followed the issue through from the outset, my understanding is that most of the expenditure involved is, in a sense, historical, because the OFT has done its work. It was inevitable that the Government would have to bring the resolution forward, but the Bill will not incur much expenditure.
More importantly, what is the point of having an Office of Fair Trading if we are not going to listen to its recommendations? I know that that thought has steeled my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), who introduced this excellent Bill, and the hon. Member for St. Ives (Andrew George), who has led the campaign admirably. It is only right that we see the Bill
through, and I hope that the money resolution will be passed unanimously. There is clearly a view that it is needed, and needed now.
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