Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360-379)
CHRISTINE GILBERT
CBE AND MIRIAM
ROSEN
6 MAY 2009
Q360 Mr Heppell: School report
cards seem to be aimed at lots of peopleparents, carers,
schools, government and Ofsted, all with a different requirement.
What is actually the purpose? Who is the school report card for?
Is it for people to judge the schools? Give us your view of who
it is aimed at.
Christine Gilbert: I do not see
it as aimed at Ofsted. I see it as primarily aimeda number
of people would use itat parents, the public and pupils
themselves. I see it as something that more clearly tells you
about the key things that are important to the school. The debate,
of course, is about what those things are: is there agreement
on what those key things are on the report card?
Q361 Mr Heppell: Every time
we talk about this we have some people who say, "What we
want is something that's quite simple, that parents can look at,
where they can see everything." Then you get someone else
who talks about how you need more detail about this and that.
Someone suggested there should be a web page with a simple bit
and something you could click on to get more detailed stuff. Where
do you stand? How do you see it? Do you see it as a really detailed
statement of the school or something where the school would be
wrapped in a number, and that would be about it?
Christine Gilbert: It is important,
whether you can dig deep or not, that at first glance it has a
real sharpness and clarity and conveys a picture of the school
simply and effectively. I think that that is important. In terms
of the grade issue, on balance, we think that a single grade might
be helpfulthat is what Ofsted does now; there are a number
of grades in the report, but an overall grade is given as well.
One of the things that I would hope for is some simplicity. I
think I have said in a previous meeting that one of the things
that parents have said to us is that they are completely lost
now, when they look at the achievement and attainment tables,
and don't follow what is going on. Even people who are really
quite engaged in the educational debate cannot get a grip on what
it all means. So I think it is really important that it is simple
and clear, but I also think that it might well be used for other
purposes. I have used the name "health check" and we
cannot find an alternativewe hope to find one by September.
We would not use our health check if that were to be available
to parents, so it could be used for additional purposes.
Q362 Mr Heppell: The Government
have suggested that it could be used by Ofsted to decide where
it is going to do inspections. That seems fair enough. What about
if Ofsted then goes in and it comes up with a completely different
view of the school from the one set out in, if you like, the mark
or grade, or the way the report card is set out describing the
school? Where do we go from there?
Christine Gilbert: I think that
that would be inevitable in some instances, because the Ofsted
inspection is real time, as it wereyou go in and you capture
a picture of a school. The data presented in the card is looking
backwards and might well be more out of date than the inspection.
But the inspections also look at different things.
Q363 Chairman: Are you being
asked to help design or inform the school report card?
Christine Gilbert: As I said earlier,
Miriam is an assessor on the group, so we will contribute to the
design.
Q364 Chairman: So which people
are working on the school report card?
Miriam Rosen: Can I just say that
there are people from within Ofsted who have been working with
the Department to look at what the report card should look like.
The Department is in the lead, but we will definitely comment
on it.
Q365 Chairman: So the Department
has been drawing on your expertise?
Miriam Rosen: Yes.
Q366 Chairman: Who else has
it been drawing on? Who else is there?
Miriam Rosen: We have been talking
to them bilaterally.
Q367 Chairman: You have not
been to a meeting with our friends in CfBT and Capita?
Miriam Rosen: We have been having
meetings with the specific people who are working on report cards.
Q368 Chairman: Right, but
is there a working group in the Department?
Miriam Rosen: There is a group
of people in the Department whose responsibility it is.
Q369 Chairman: But you have
not met them?
Miriam Rosen: Yes. I have met
them.
Q370 Chairman: So how many
did you meet?
Miriam Rosen: The main people
we met were the other two or three people.
Q371 Chairman: And they were
civil servants in the Department?
Miriam Rosen: Yes.
Q372 Chairman: But you didn't
meet anyone else they were consulting with?
Miriam Rosen: When we meet them,
we meet them by ourselves. I am not totally aware of who else
they are meeting with. But they have drawn on our expertise.
Q373 Chairman: So you are
the key people personally, Miriam. Who will write the school report
card on the school?
Miriam Rosen: It will be doneI
can't tell you the answer to that question.
Q374 Chairman: It's quite
important, isn't it? The Chief Inspector has, under John's questioning,
said, "You might get an Ofsted report that says this, and
a school report that says that." So who is producing the
school report card if it is not Ofsted?
Christine Gilbert: I assumed that
it was the DCSF, but I have no ideanow you have asked the
question, I assume that.
Q375 Chairman: So you think
that the DCSF will do it nationally. In the Department, the people
will write a school report card on the little primary school in
my constituency?
Christine Gilbert: Whether they
do it themselves or commission it, I am not sure
Chairman: Ah, they are going to commission
it.
Christine Gilbert: The lead would
be from them. I don't think it's being discussed that it would
be Ofsted.
Q376 Chairman: Will the local authority
be the appropriate people to do it? We are off to have a look
at school report cards. This is quite important information, but
you don't know.
Christine Gilbert: I just haven't
been involved in that discussion. But the Ofsted inspection grade,
we think, should be a part of the school report card.
Chairman: Sorry, John. I cut across your
questioning.
Q377 Mr Heppell: Just one
thing to lead on from that: where do parents fit into this? Have
the parents been asked? Is it clear to parents what the school
is like, to enable them to assess whether the school is run to
the benefit of their child in the first place, or to be able to
follow progress, if you like? Have parents, and teachers actually,
been involved in the discussions about how the report card should
look?
Miriam Rosen: The Department has
been talking to a group of stakeholders called the "New Relationship
with Schools" group. Teachers are represented at that point,
as are parents and governors associations. That is where that
discussion has been taking place.
Christine Gilbert: But there is
a formal consultation, I think.
Miriam Rosen: There has already
been one consultation, and there will be, I think, another one.
Q378 Mr Chaytor: Can I come
back to the point about who signs off the report card, particularly
if there is a single grade. This brings us back to where we started,
because if the Department has the responsibility for allocating
the grade, it presumably completely undermines the point about
independence from government, which was the first question that
I asked in the session. Doesn't this completely sabotage Ofsted's
role?
Miriam Rosen: The Government will
not be signing off the Ofsted gradeI can assure you of
that.
Q379 Mr Chaytor: No, but there
is then the possibility of a conflict between the Ofsted grade
and the Department's grade. So what does that say?
Chairman: Or you could get rid of Ofsted,
Davidit would be much cheaper. We would have the report
card.
Mr Chaytor: It is hard to understand
that there has not been some major debate between Ofsted and the
Department on this question of who allocates the final grade on
the report card.
|