Examination of Witnesses (Questions 460-479)
MR VERNON
COAKER AND
JON COLES
8 JULY 2009
Q460 Mr Chaytor: Do you think
we need fewer but better people?
Mr Coaker: I think that is difficult
to say overall. I would hate the idea of professionalisation,
although they need to be more professional, if you understand
the point.
Q461 Chairman: I think there is
a good balance here. Minister, does the Schools Commissioner have
anything to do with accountability these days?
Mr Coaker: Certainly, the Schools
Commissioner works with us in tackling all of these issues.
Q462 Chairman: Who is the new
Schools Commissioner?
Jon Coles: We will be advertising
a director job in the directorate shortly.
Q463 Chairman: That is not the
Schools Commissioner. The Schools Commissioner left months ago,
and you haven't got one. Where is he? I know he went, but where's
the new one? You're not going to have one, are you?
Jon Coles: We will make an appointment
of a director in the directorate.
Q464 Chairman: That is not the
same, Jon. These are weasel words. I have asked consistently what
has happened to the role of Schools Commissioner. He is mentioned
in primary legislation.
Jon Coles: No, he's not.
Chairman: Yes, he is.
Jon Coles: No.
Q465 Chairman: We will check you
on that. Why have a Schools Commissioner up front, an important
part of balancing the evidence given to this Committee? It was
an important role and you buried it—or buried him.
Jon Coles: He has gone to do a
really important job in the system.
Q466 Chairman: We know what has
happened to him, but it is very unusual. You couldn't do that
with the Chief Inspector, could you? Who else in the firmament
of education is at risk and not to be replaced? There has been
no explanation to this Committee. I have asked time and time again—what
has happened to the Schools Commissioner?
Mr Coaker: Would it be helpful,
given that you have asked for an explanation and not had one,
if I offered to go back to the Department and find out and write
to you?[1]
Q467 Chairman: But I have consistently
asked. It is really frustrating that there is a mystery around
this. It is like an Agatha Christie story. Who killed him in—
Mr Coaker: If I put on the record
that I will write to you on this point, and copy it to members
of the Committee, and that I will ensure that that is done quickly
and promptly, would that be helpful?
Q468 Chairman: Thank you. Will
you check that that role is not mentioned at all in any legislation?
Mr Coaker: I will check the factual
point as well.
Chairman: Thank you. You can go now.
Jon, you cannot go—we have two more questions for you because
you do not have to run to a debate.
Q469 Annette Brooke: Coming back
to the data evaluation, which I must admit I was really not impressed
with at the time, to what extent are SIPs simply being trained
to produce what Ofsted wants to see? Do we have a cosy relationship
between Ofsted and SIPs?
Jon Coles: No, I don't think so.
I think there is an issue with SIP training at the moment as it
is too narrowly focused on data, but I do not think that that
is connected to Ofsted and what Ofsted is looking for. We need—and
the White Paper says this—to train SIPs much more broadly
in school improvement and in reading schools and brokering the
right support and so on, but I don't think that that is an Ofsted
issue at all.
Q470 Annette Brooke: But presumably,
the point of having the SIPs there is to improve the Ofsted grade.
Jon Coles: Yes. It is to improve
the school. Absolutely. It provides challenge and support to the
leadership of the school to improve it.
Q471 Annette Brooke: I think my
concern is that it is game-playing to get a better grade. Perhaps
the SIPs role will change something so that you get the highest
overall grade on the report card. How are we seeing real changes
in behaviour, and not just the data looking better? I am still
not convinced.
Jon Coles: Obviously, this is
a change that has not been implemented yet, so I cannot prove
to you that it is going to be effective. The aim is straightforwardly
that there is someone who really knows and understands the school
well, knows what is going on, knows the ways in which the pupils
are being well served or less well served, and is able to challenge
and support the leadership of the school to serve the pupils better.
That is the objective. I do not see that as a game-playing exercise
at all; I see it as a well-grounded process of trying to improve
things for the children and young people in the school. As I say,
I cannot prove to you that the reforms are going to work as we
have yet to implement them, but that is absolutely the objective
of them.
Q472 Chairman: Jon, how long have
SIPs been in place? How long have we had them?
Jon Coles: We started piloting
them—I will have to confirm this—around 2004, I think.
Q473 Chairman: So we have had
time to evaluate whether they add value?
Jon Coles: Yes, and there is a
SIP evaluation available.
Q474 Chairman: Who did that?
Jon Coles: I don't know the answer
to that off the top of my head, I'm afraid. It is publicly available,
and I can certainly make sure that you get it.[2]
Q475 Chairman: But the evaluation
was that they do add value, and that is why you are really going
into SIPs phase 2?
Jon Coles: There are a number
of points of detail where the evaluation suggested that there
was room for improvement, but overall, there was a sense that
they had added value. We think that this set of reforms potentially
makes their impact that much greater.
Q476 Chairman: There is a voice
out there, Jon, that says, "For goodness' sake, why do we
need a White Paper and more legislation? Why not let it all be?"
Not all of the reforms you have introduced over the last 12 years
have bedded down, and yet you are bringing on more. Do you sit
in the Department in Sanctuary Buildings looking down at the school,
the head, the teachers and the students just thinking up wheezes
but not really thinking about what impact they will have on the
people who have to put them into operation?
Jon Coles: Well, no, we do not.
By going through the policy-making process, we are obviously trying
to understand the real issues out there that affect children and
young people and their educational success and the evidence about
what might be effective in improving that and producing well-implemented
policies that improve things for children and young people. That
is obviously the objective of what we are doing. Some of what
we are saying in the White Paper aims to reduce the pressure of
centrally driven reform programmes, move to a system based more
closely on the needs of individual schools and produce something
that is actually more effective in improving things, partly because
it is easier to implement for schools, more manageable for them
and more focused on their precise needs. That is the objective.
Q477 Chairman: Jon, we said very
similar things in our report on the national curriculum, but you
gave us a really dusty old reply to that report because we said
that the pendulum should swing back to give more power to schools
and teachers. That is exactly what we said, but you came back
with a very negative response. Why was that, because that does
not seem to square with what you are saying this morning or what
you said in the White Paper?
Jon Coles: Well, I know that you
will be discussing that further shortly and am sorry that you
thought our reply was dusty.
Chairman: Negative.
Jon Coles: It was not intended
to be. Clearly, what we have done in the White Paper is try to
design a system that is more effective in improving things, partly
because it is more sensitive to school circumstances. If we are
at one on that, so much the better.
Q478 Mr Chaytor: The model report
card that Ofsted has produced describes the school by age range,
gender and type. The "Anytown" school in "General"
borough council is described as a comprehensive. How many types
of school will there be for that purpose?
Jon Coles: The report card will
treat them all in exactly the same way.
Q479 Mr Chaytor: So all schools
will be described as comprehensives?
Jon Coles: No, they will all be
accurately described as what they are.
1 See Ev 213 Back
2
See Ev 213 Back
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