Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
1320-1328)
MR ALAN
RUSBRIDGER, MR
PAUL JOHNSON
AND MR
NICK DAVIES
14 JULY 2009
Q1320 Mr Hall: I always thought it
was somebody in Prescott's office that was selling the story to
the press. It may well be now that it was somebody who was listening
to his phone instead.
Mr Davies: We do not know but
I can definitely tell you that the time-frame when Mulcaire was
targeting Prescott coincides with the breaking of that story.
It was not the News of the World that broke that
story so it may just be that they were following it up. That is
more likely I think.
Q1321 Mr Hall: Going back to the
categories, politicians, people in entertainment, people in sport,
general celebrities were all on this list of attempted hacks to
phones.
Mr Davies: Hang on, we must keep
different things separate. There is this mighty list of people
where they were blagging into confidential databases. Steve Whittamore
trying to get bank statements, tax records, health records, social
security records. That is a mighty list with many, many names
on it, right, and I know all those names. There is a different
list of people whose phones they were trying to hack via Glenn
Mulcaire or other private investigators. There we now know for
sure of ten people who were successfully hacked. That is three
members of the Royal Household, the other five people about whom
Mulcaire was charged: Gordon Taylor, Sky Andrew, the football
agent, Elle MacPherson, Simon Hughes and Max Clifford, and then
in addition the two other people who sued alongside Gordon Taylor,
Joe Armstrong and the football lawyer, so you have ten definite
cases.
Q1322 Chairman: Is Vanessa Feltz
not somewhere in this?
Mr Davies: I have no idea how
she arrived in the middle of this story. Suddenly she was everywhere
and I looked at my notes and — Then you have all sorts of
very interesting briefing going on so The Sunday Times
ran a story on Sunday in a News International newspaper in which
towards the end of the story they suggested strongly that a senior
BBC executive was in my first category and had blazingly obviously
had his or her phone messages hacked and that it appeared likely
that the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair was in the
second category. I am not telling you that I know that is true.
All I am telling you is that a News International newspaper identified
those two names on Sunday. If, if, if the Metropolitan Commissioner
was the target or victim—
Mr Johnson: We have actually reported
police sources saying that they do not believe Ian Blair was targeted.
Mr Davies: That would be very
shocking. I do not know what is going on there. There is more
to come.
Q1323 Mr Hall: There was speculation
as to why such a variety people were attempted to have their phones
hacked and that that information would be passed on to the journalists
that were interested in those characters. There is another possibility
that they could have been passed on to the deputy editor or the
editor and the editor would have farmed out the information to
the journalists he thought might cover that story.
Mr Davies: In principle you are
right but as far as I know and particularly bearing in mind the
transcript I gave you earlier on it is actually happening at a
junior level.
Q1324 Mr Watson: Do you think a register
of private investigation firms used by newspapers would help create
transparency and reassurance that these kinds of things are not
going on any more?
Mr Davies: I am particularly useless
on solutions. I am not quite sure what we should do. It is not
my strong suit. I peer over the wall into the orchard and somebody
gives me an apple and I come and show it to you. I can do that.
Mr Johnson: Sometimes on something
like that glibly one could say perhaps that would add to the transparency
but I am sure that it would not take long to be able to drive
a coach and horses through any transparency there. We are much
keener on trying to refine what actually could be defined in the
public interest and what could not with the Ormond steps and suggestions.
It seems to us a much more concrete way forward that other people
could buy into.
Q1325 Paul Farrelly: We cannot speculate
about other reporters who may or may not have used Glenn Mulcaire
but the evidence you have given us here does show prima facie
evidence of one conduit which is to the chief reporter.
Mr Davies: Yes, involving that
other reporter who we are going to not name.
Q1326 Paul Farrelly: When we looked
at this two years ago, the Chairman asked the Executive Chairman
of News International at the time, Mr Hinton, the following question:
"You carried out a full rigorous internal inquiry and you
are absolutely convinced that Clive Goodman was the only person
who knew what was going on?" The answer was: "Yes we
have and I believe he was the only person." That is leading
us to believe that the News of the World carried out a
thorough inquiry and came up with nothing, when we have seen here
that it appears that the chief reporter no less was also in the
business of dealing with the sort of information over which Clive
Goodman was convicted. What do you think that says about not only
the evidence we have received but also the thoroughness of the
News International inquiry?
Mr Davies: I think I have touched
on this before. First, this is a newspaper that specialises in
investigations and you would think that they could find out what
some of their own people were doing. I think it is very hard to
resist the conclusion that in its public statements about the
scope of illegal behaviour they have consistently admitted only
what has been forced and dragged into the public domain and is
indisputable and everything else has remained behind a wall of
misleading statements. I do not know what Les Hinton as an individual
knew but I think it is fair to say we have consistently been misled
by News International, and that includes the statement that they
released on Friday evening and in my own dealings with them. I
called the Director of Communications of News Group the week before
we published the story. I said, "Can you confirm that you
have paid damages to somebody who has sued you for hacking into
their mobile phone?" That was a Thursday afternoon and she
went off to make enquiries. On Thursday evening I had a phone
call from somebody at News International saying, "What have
you done? They are all chasing around blaming everybody else for
having given you the story." Friday morning she called back
and left a message on my answer machine to say, "I have spoken
to all the managing editors and all the lawyers; nobody knows
what you are talking about." I want to make it clear she,
I am sure, is an innocent victim of somebody behind the scenes
who is not prepared to tell the truth. There is a consistent and
worrying pattern here in News International's statements, to you,
to me, to the public.
Q1327 Mr Sanders: You have hinted
very strongly there that you have been misled by News International.
When you spoke at some length I almost got the impression here
that you were getting close to suggesting that you may have been
misled by the police.
Mr Davies: I think the statement
that the Assistant Commissioner made last week on Thursday afternoon
fails to disclose the facts of the case which is what he said
he was going to establish. It makes no reference to any kind of
involvement by other News of the World journalists. It
says, "We have already told everybody where there was clear
evidence of their phone being hacked," and yet 24 hours later
they sneak out this statement saying, "We are now telling
people." I do not understand why John Yates did not tell
us all of that upfront on Thursday afternoon.
Q1328 Chairman: I think that is all
we have for the time being.
Mr Davies: Okay. Thank you for
your time.
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