Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
1550-1559)
MR ANDY
COULSON AND
MR STUART
KUTTNER
21 JULY 2009
Chairman: For the second part of this
morning's session, can I welcome the Managing Editor of the News
of the World, Stuart Kuttner, and the former Editor, Andy
Coulson. To begin, having shown remarkable restraint so far, Peter
Ainsworth.
Q1550 Mr Ainsworth: Good morning.
Do you want to say something first?
Mr Coulson: Would you mind? I
know that time is of the essence, but I wondered if I might take
a couple of minutes just to make a few comments that might save
some time in the long term. Good morning. I was, as you know,
Editor of the News of the World for four years from January
2003 until January 2007. During that time I never condoned the
use of `phone hacking and nor do I have any recollection of incidences
where `phone hacking took place. My instructions to the staff
were clear: we did not use subterfuge of any kind unless there
was a clear public interest in doing so; they were to work within
the PCC Code at all times. I arranged for the staff to attend
seminars with the PCC and the in-house lawyer, where they were
given regular refreshers. I gave the reporters freedom as professional
journalists to make their own judgments and I also gave them plenty
of resource. We spent money in the pursuit of stories at the News
of the World, more money than most newspapers, and I make
no secret of the fact. In an average week the News of the World
would publish around 100 news and feature stories; the amount
of stories being actively worked on with resource being spent
on them would be two to three times that amount. As Editor, my
duties, other than obviously editing the paper itself, included
overseeing the marketing of the paper and overseeing the advertising
layout, campaigns, any events and whatever else the week inevitably
threw up. So I would invariably concentrate on only a handful
of those 100 stories and focused mainly on the first 13 to 15
pages, the under-spread sport, the leaders and other comment pages;
I was not able to micromanage every story, and nor did I attempt
to. In relation to the Clive Goodman/Glenn Mulcaire case, I would
like to make the following points: I never met, emailed or spoke
to Glenn Mulcaire; I knew the name of what I was later to discover
was his company, Nine Consultancy, because the newspaper paid
around £100,000, as you know, a year for legitimate investigation
services. The judge in the court case accepted that this was a
perfectly legal arrangement, as I believe did the prosecution.
I am sure the contract sounds expensive, but the fact is at the
News of the World, where I would regularly spend five figures
on a single story or a picture, this payment did not stand out.
The extra payments paid to Glenn Mulcaire by Clive Goodman were
unknown to me and were concealed from the Managing Editor. I should
add that, as I made clear in my statement, I have no knowledge
of a News International settlement with Gordon Taylor or anyone
else involved in this Inquiry. I do not recall ever commissioning
a Gordon Taylor news story, I do not remember ever reading one
and I certainly did not publish one. Before you begin your questions
I would also like to stress that these matters that we are going
to discuss took place three or more years ago. Finally, I would
like to say this, Chairman: things went badly wrong under my editorship
of the News of the World; I deeply regret it; I suspect
I always will. I take the blame because, ultimately, it was my
responsibility. I am not asking for any sympathy (I suspect I
am unlikely to get any today), but when I resigned I gave up a
20-year career with News International and, in the process, everything
that I had worked towards from the age of 18. However, I think
it is right that when people make mistakes they take responsibility,
and that is why I resigned. Thank you, Chairman, for that time.
Chairman: Thank you.
Q1551 Mr Ainsworth: We have just
heard, Mr Coulson, from Mr Myler that one of the very first things
he did when he came and took over from you in February 2007 was
to instigate a whole raft of new control mechanisms within the
organisation to ensure compliance with the PCC Code, to ensure
that contracts were revised so that misdemeanours could be penalised
appropriately—a whole series of measures. I know he said
earlier that it was not the Wild West when he arrived—that
there was a sort of system in place—but does not the fact
that so much had to be done suggest that when you were editor
there was a kind of slackness in terms of the way that disciplinary
issues were handled and that compliance was enforced.
Mr Coulson: I have to accept,
looking back on my editorship, as I think I touched on in my opening
remarks, that mistakes were made. I have to accept that the system
could have been better—I think it is self-evident that the
system could have been better—but I would argue the point
that no efforts were made to properly control reporters' activities
and to properly control the finances.
Q1552 Mr Ainsworth: Can we speculate
a little as to if the system had been better, in your words, you
would probably have known about the whole Mulcaire issue?
Mr Coulson: I probably would have
known?
Q1553 Mr Ainsworth: About what was
going on with Mulcaire.
Mr Coulson: No, I do not think
I can—
Q1554 Mr Ainsworth: Even if the system
had been as it is now you still would not have known?
Mr Coulson: Sure, I understand.
I do not think I can say that with certainty, no, because what
we had with the Clive Goodman case was a reporter who deceived
the managing editor's office and, in turn, deceived me. I have
thought long and hard about this (I did when I left): what could
I have done to have stopped this from happening? But if a rogue
reporter decides to behave in that fashion I am not sure that
there is an awful lot more I could have done.
Q1555 Mr Ainsworth: So your immediate
response on hearing this was, presumably, surprise?
Mr Coulson: Yes, and anger.
Q1556 Mr Ainsworth: Can we turn to
the money? You touched on this in your opening remarks. It may
just be that what we are looking at here is a difference in scale
as well as, perhaps, a difference in culture between yourselves
and the Guardian. (When I say "yourselves" I
mean the News of the World as it was and the Guardian.)
Mr Coulson: There are many differences
between us.
Q1557 Mr Ainsworth: There are, indeed,
many differences. We heard from Alan Rusbridger that he would
expect to have been told that the Guardian had paid £100,000,
and I know that Mr Myler objects to the use of the word "bonus"
payment, but there were also additional payments made which, again,
Alan Rusbridger said he would expect to be told about in his situation.
Is the reason that you were not told about this simply to do with
the difference in scale of operations between the Guardian
and the News of the World, or is it some other procedural
thing?
Mr Coulson: The budget that I
was given at the News of the World far exceeds that, I
am sure, with all due respect to the Guardian, of the Guardian
newspaper, I suspect. As I said in my opening remarks, I would
regularly pay vast sums of money for a single story or a single
picture, so the idea that I would micromanage the budget, I am
afraid—it just was not the case. Can I add this as well,
because I am sure that you will be asking more specific questions
about the budgeting process, both of me and of Mr Kuttner: I accept
that the system was not perfect and I take ultimate responsibility
for it. If I could give you some examples of things that I wish
I had done that could have prevented the Mulcaire case, I would
give them to you today. I am not able to do that, but as a general
point, obviously, looking back, I wish that I had done more.
Q1558 Mr Ainsworth: What would you
like to have done?
Mr Coulson: It is difficult to
say. I cannot give you a specific set of measures. To give you
an example, once we knew that Clive Goodman had been arrested,
obviously, we wanted to find out pretty quickly what had happened.
So we instigated an internal inquiry; I brought in an independent
set of solicitors with the primary purpose, I have to say, of
trying to find out what happened in relation to Clive, and we
discovered that these cash payments had taken place. So, yes,
could I have tightened up the cash payment process? Maybe yes,
and maybe I should have done.
Q1559 Mr Ainsworth: Although you
have just said that even if the new systems that Mr Myler put
in place had been in place when you were there you still would
not have known—
Mr Coulson: I cannot be sure.
I am trying to be—
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