Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
1700-1719)
MR ANDY
COULSON AND
MR STUART
KUTTNER
21 JULY 2009
Q1700 Adam Price: Finally, Mr Coulson,
I think you were quoted in the Press Gazette, that august
publication, as saying that if a journalist comes to you with
a great story, one of the first questions you ask is, "How
did you get it?" Did you ever ask that question of Clive
Goodman?
Mr Coulson: I do not recall specific
circumstances where I did. I think in that interview I was laying
out a broad idea of how things worked on the News of the World.
Certainly from time to time I would ask how stories came about.
I was generally though more concerned about how a story could
be stood up and how a story could be in a fit state to be published.
Q1701 Adam Price: Everyone who knows
you says that you were a hands-on editor, that you would probe
stories relentlessly at editorial conversation, you would roam
the news floor, you were a constant presence. If your Royal reporter
or chief reporter was presenting a story would you not always
ask about the provenance of these stories?
Mr Coulson: Not always, no, and,
as I said in my opening statement, I did not micromanage every
story, nor did I micromanage every reporter. It is possible in
all walks of life—and perhaps Mr Watson will back me up
on this—to work very close to someone who is doing something
that they should not be doing, perhaps sending emails or whatnot,
and not have full knowledge of what it is they are up to and being
completely oblivious to what it is they are up to.
Q1702 Adam Price: I think Mr Watson
will probably want to come in. I referred to a particular story
in the earlier session involving the two Princes and I was surprised
that Mr Crone feigned ignorance of this particular story because
Neville Thurlbeck was actually cross-examined in relation to this
exact story by counsel for Max Mosley at the Mosley case?
Mr Coulson: You will have to forgive
me, which story are you referring to?
Q1703 Adam Price: We have a copy
of the News of the World somewhere: "Chelsy tears
a strip off Harry". It is a story which is essentially based
around a phone message left by Prince William imitating Chelsy,
Prince Harry's girlfriend, on Prince Harry's phone. Either the
story was untrue or it was based on the phone hacking of the Prince's
phone. It also appeared on the front in an inset. Are you saying
that as an editor, a page 7 story about the Princes, about a message
left on their phone, and you as an editor of a national newspaper,
with an inset on the front, would not have checked the provenance
of that story?
Mr Coulson: Not necessarily, no,
and I do not remember the story. I will have a look at it now.
Q1704 Adam Price: Are you aware now
whether the Prince's phone was hacked?
Mr Coulson: No, I am not aware
either way.
Q1705 Adam Price: Should you not
find out?
Mr Coulson: Well I suggest—I
do not remember the story, I am sorry.
Q1706 Adam Price: Is that not astonishing?
You are an Editor of a national newspaper and here is a story
which is based around a verbatim account of a phone message left
by one Prince on the other Prince's phone. You put an inset on
the front, you brand it as exclusive, it is high up the paper
and you are telling me that as Editor you do not even remember
the story and you did not ask Clive Goodman or Neville Thurlbeck,
who we now know of course it would appear received a transcript
in relation to other phone hacking, that you did not know and
you did not ask at the time?
Mr Coulson: Mr Price, I am sorry,
but I can only tell you what I remember and I do not remember
this story at all. I am trying to remind myself of what the week
may have been like by looking at the rest of the paper. It seems
that we had a buy-up with an Eastenders star, we were in the middle
of a DVD promotion, there is a very good story about David Cameron
on page 2. I am afraid I simply do not remember this story so
I can only therefore conclude that I played no part in it. I can
only tell you what I know. I do not know what edition it is and
I would like to know what edition this is. I am sorry, I can only
tell you what I remember and I do not remember the story at all.
Q1707 Tom Watson: I think last time
we met I was your guest at the News International reception at
the Labour Party Conference. It is good to see you again.
Mr Coulson: Very good, nice to
see you.
Q1708 Tom Watson: Do you think Clive
Goodman deserved a jail sentence?
Mr Coulson: I think Clive paid
a price for his crimes.
Q1709 Tom Watson: So you think he
deserved it?
Mr Coulson: I think that Clive
paid a price for his crimes and I would not argue with what happened
in any way, shape or form.
Q1710 Tom Watson: But that price
of four months in jail was deserved?
Mr Coulson: That was a judgment
for the judge, was it not?
Q1711 Tom Watson: What is your judgment?
Mr Coulson: I am not arguing with
the judgment at all.
Q1712 Tom Watson: What is your judgment?
Mr Coulson: On what?
Q1713 Tom Watson: On the four-month
sentence?
Mr Coulson: Not in any way since
Clive's conviction have I disputed the judgment and I do not think
I would now.
Q1714 Tom Watson: Have you seen him
since he went to jail?
Mr Coulson: No.
Q1715 Tom Watson: Or talked to him?
Mr Coulson: No.
Q1716 Tom Watson: Would you have
considered him a friend before he was arrested for what he did?
Mr Coulson: I knew Clive a bit.
We had a mutual friend many years ago but, no, Clive and I were
not especially close.
Q1717 Tom Watson: Do you think Mulcaire
deserved his prison sentence?
Mr Coulson: I feel the same way
as I did about Clive's sentence.
Q1718 Tom Watson: It must have been
a terrible day when they were arrested. When you conducted your
inquiry did you ask detailed questions about what Mulcaire did
and did not do for the company?
Mr Coulson: At what stage, sorry?
Q1719 Tom Watson: When you found
out about the arrests. Presumably you commissioned an inquiry?
Mr Coulson: Yes. Obviously we
wanted to know internally very quickly what the hell had gone
on. Then I brought in Burton Copeland, an independent firm of
solicitors to carry out an investigation. We opened up the files
as much as we could. There was nothing that they asked for that
they were not given.
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