Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
1760-1779)
MR ANDY
COULSON AND
MR STUART
KUTTNER
21 JULY 2009
Q1760 Mr Sanders: Yes.
Mr Coulson: No, I think on balance—there
were a number of options and I guess one was that I might have
continued and there were other options and I opted by mutual agreement
for the one I have.
Q1761 Mr Hall: Mr Kuttner, you were
present when I was talking to Mr Myler about the reductions he
says he has made in the cash budget for paying for stories and
he said it was reduced from between 82% to 89% and he said that
you might be able to put an actual figure on that.
Mr Kuttner: It is possible I can
but once again I would need to do the research. What I can say,
if it is helpful to you and to the Committee, is that although,
if you like, the issue of cash payments is a key issue here, in
quantity terms, the old rate on the old figures, and indeed particularly
the new figures, are not only very small but are a very small
percentage of overall payments, but I can research figures if
that is helpful.
Q1762 Mr Hall: That would be helpful
but what also would be helpful is to know if this is an actual
reduction in the cash that was spent or whether the money was
spent in a different way either by bank transfer or by cheque?
Mr Kuttner: All right. I will
ask the accountants if they can help me in that respect.
Q1763 Mr Hall: Who signs the cheques?
Mr Kuttner: They go through a
process through our accounts department in Peterborough.
Q1764 Mr Hall: And bank transfers
are authorised by?
Mr Kuttner: Quite often they would
be authorised by me.
Q1765 Mr Hall: By you?
Mr Kuttner: Yes.
Q1766 Mr Hall: And any cash payments
that were made they would actually be signed for as well, would
they?
Mr Kuttner: Yes.
Q1767 Mr Hall: Because you did say
that regrettably there were a small number of improper payments
that were made. Could you tell us precisely how many improper
payments were made?
Mr Kuttner: When I used the term
improper I was referring to the Goodman payments.
Q1768 Mr Hall: So those improper
payments are exclusively to Goodman and whoever he may have paid
as a third party and nobody else?
Mr Kuttner: When I used the term
improper, perhaps that was the wrong term. I was referring to
payments made when they were payments for information which had
been obtained in what turned out to be an unlawful way.
Q1769 Mr Hall: Could you give the
Committee more precise documentary evidence about that?
Mr Kuttner: That is all the material
that the police gathered and formed the basis of the prosecution.
Q1770 Mr Hall: These were improper
payments made by your newspaper?
Mr Kuttner: I used the term improper,
Mr Hall, to mean payments made for something that should not have
been done.
Q1771 Mr Hall: Sure but we would
like to know what that was.
Mr Kuttner: Well, I think what
it was was the subject of the prosecution.
Q1772 Mr Hall: This is information
that you have got. Are you trying to rely on the fact that because
of the prosecution there is confidentiality that is going to breached?
Mr Kuttner: No, I think there
is a misunderstanding. I know of no other improper payments.
Q1773 Mr Hall: So improper payments
were made to Goodman and nobody else?
Mr Kuttner: Not to Goodman.
Q1774 Mr Hall: Or by him?
Mr Kuttner: Yes.
Q1775 Mr Hall: To third parties?
Do we know precisely how many third parties were involved?
Mr Kuttner: I do not know, no.
I think they are the payments that are referred to as the Alexander
payments.
Q1776 Mr Hall: And Alexander is a
pseudonym for?
Mr Kuttner: As I understand it,
Mulcaire.
Q1777 Mr Hall: How many other pseudonyms
has he got?
Mr Kuttner: I do not know.
Q1778 Mr Hall: You know of at least
two?
Mr Kuttner: I know of Alexander.
Q1779 Mr Hall: What about Williams?
Who is he a pseudonym for?
Mr Kuttner: I have learned that
Williams, of which I personally was unaware, is a name that I
have heard that Mulcaire asked be used in respect of this, as
I think we heard from Tom Crone in respect of a particular contract.
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