Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
20-39)
GENERAL SIR
KEVIN O'DONOGHUE,
DR ANDREW
TYLER AND
MR GUY
LESTER
1 DECEMBER 2009
Q20 Chairman: How many people are
involved in buying helicopters?
Dr Tyler: I think that operating
centre is about 800 or 900 staff, from memory, but we can confirm
that number to you precisely.[2]
Q21 Chairman: That would be helpful.
Thank you. When you are downsizing from 22,000 to 20,000 how can
you be sure that you will lose the right people?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
I would like to call it "rightsizing" rather than "downsizing".
Q22 Chairman: Down is not necessarily
wrong?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
No. To get to the right size, and we are going through this exercise
at the moment, I am absolutely clear that professionalism and
safety must be paramount: professionalism in the way that we work,
and safety right across all the disciplines. We are moving people
around out of the corporate centre into the operating centres.
There is a process in place. You cannot always guarantee that
you do not lose some of the people you would rather not lose.
People are free agents, they can move if they wish to; but I think
our process is a reasonable one.
Q23 Chairman: Are you not likely
to lose the most enterprising?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
Possibly. I would just perhaps put on record that I think we have
in our Civil Service a really loyal staff. If you look at some
of the men and women in my organisation who will appear and say,
"We've worked until 10 or 11 at night. We've worked seven
days a week for the last four weeks and look what we've delivered
in the way of equipment or support to the frontline. We're proud
of it". I think while we can engender that sort of attitude,
that behaviour, we will keep the better people. There is this
great focus in DE&S—and great focus right across the
MoD—of support to the frontline, and that is what keeps
people in, they know they are doing a good job.
Q24 Chairman: You are talking about
moving people around, the analysis in the Bernard Gray review
about the rotation of staff in positions of responsibility suggests
that that rotation has become greater and more frequent, and that
it has an adverse effect on project performance. What would you
say about that?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
I do not think it has become any greater at all. That is perhaps
another fact I do not necessarily agree with him over. The military
do move but as I have said, and as Dr Tyler has said, we need
the military to bring back recent operational experience. I need
young men and women from the three Services to be in my organisation
and say, "I wouldn't buy that if I were you. We don't fight
like that any more". That is what I need them for, so they
need current operational experience. The continuity, as I have
said, is provided by my team leaders and deputy team leaders who
we tend now to post in to a milestone. It might be to achieve
Initial Gate; it might be to achieve Main Gate, depending upon
the timescales.
Q25 Chairman: Okay, so you do not
agree. What is it exactly that you do not agree with him on?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
I do not think we move people too fast.
Q26 Chairman: He says that in 2003
the average number of people who were in position for between
one and two years was 31%. Is that something you would disagree
with him on?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
I do not recognise the figure. Which year was that?
Q27 Chairman: That was in 2003. In
2009 he says it was 23%. Would you disagree with that?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
I do not recognise those figures, I am afraid.
Q28 Chairman: These figures were
produced after an exhaustive review with assistance from your
Department. Did he invent them?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
I do not know. I do not know the answer to that.
Mr Jenkin: Could you write to us?
Q29 Chairman: Why do you not know?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
Because I have not done the maths. I have not considered it a
problem. I do not react to every review that is done unless I
can perceive a problem. I do not perceive a problem in the movement
of staff and so I have not done the percentages.
Q30 Chairman: So you disagree with
his maths, not because you think it is wrong but because you have
not done the maths yourself?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
No, I disagree with his financial maths, as I made clear. I disagree
with his between one and a bit and two and a bit billion adrift;
that is what I disagree with. There is no evidence in the report
to substantiate that that I have found.
Q31 Chairman: When you say "there
is no evidence in the report", have you read the supporting
paragraphs of those conclusions?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
I have read the report.
Q32 Chairman: Have you cross-examined
the people who were involved in the production of that report
to say, "Why did you get these figures wrong?"
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
If I may, let me just pass over to—
Q33 Chairman: No, not at the moment.
I would like to ask you why you disagree with his maths,
without apparently having done the maths yourself?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
Because there is no evidence to show what he means by "£1
billion or £2.5 billion adrift"—no evidence at
all.
Q34 Chairman: Have you asked him
about this?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
No.
Q35 Chairman: He is working in your
Department still, is he not?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
He is part of the DARP process, yes.
Q36 Chairman: Have you had the opportunity
to ask him about it?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
No, not that particular figure because I do not believe that it
is detrimental, the movement. Whatever the percentage of movement
is, I do not believe it is detrimental to the way my organisation
works.
Q37 Chairman: Is that because you
do not want to believe it?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
No, I do not believe it is detrimental to the way my Department
works.
Q38 Chairman: But you have not asked
him about it?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
No, not that specific question. We have had a lot of discussion
about the areas I was talking about earlier.
Q39 Chairman: Have you told him you
disagree with it?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
No.
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