Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
160-179)
GENERAL SIR
KEVIN O'DONOGHUE,
DR ANDREW
TYLER AND
MR GUY
LESTER
1 DECEMBER 2009
Q160 Chairman: I would like to probe
precisely the extent to which you wish to speak to us in confidence.
Is it about the general state of the current programme?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
Yes.
Q161 Mr Jenkin: How early it is likely
to fly?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
And where we are with our discussions as to how it might go forward.
Q162 Mr Jenkin: We have lost another
couple of years. Is there any chance of making that up?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
I do not think so.
Q163 Mr Jenkin: What about the capability
gaps that that leaves? How crucial are they?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
As you know, we have signed the FSTA contract (Future Strategic
Tanker Aircraft). Those will come in. We are looking at C17s.
Q164 Mr Jenkin: We have heard about
a C17. Are we actually looking at C17s, plural?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
It all depends on the affordability issue. One, I think, we are
definitely looking at. I would like to look at a second, but you
have to balance the budget.
Q165 Mr Jenkin: What about the fact
that we are using our C17s so intensively that we are using up
their hours much more quickly? Has that not got to be factored
in?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
They will go into deep maintenance. One will be taken out of the
equation over the next few years persistently for deep maintenance.
Q166 Mr Jenkin: Inevitably, I have
to ask the question: we have survived so long without the A400M.
Do we really need it?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
The air bridge, which is absolutely vital to Afghanistan, is surviving.
I would still describe it as fragile. It is still my highest logistic
risk, but it is surviving. What we cannot do is any of the other
contingent operations which we should be able to do without using
aircraft from that strategic bridge.
Q167 Mr Jenkin: Given the unlikelihood
of mounting operations on this scale without coalition parties—
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
It is not just on this scale. Quite small scale operations require,
depending where they are and the nature of them, air lift.
Q168 Mr Jenkin: Am I right in saying
that we cannot land C17s at Camp Bastion?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
Yes, we can. Yes, we are. We will be able to land Tri-Stars at
Camp Bastion in due course.
Q169 Mr Jenkin: If we have got C130s
and C17s, why do we need this intermediate aircraft? Why do we
not just buy more C130s and C17s?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
C17s are very expensive; they give you a certain capability. In
very simple terms, an A400M carries twice what a C130 will carry
and a C17 carries twice what an A400M will carry. The A400M is
going to be a good aircraft when it comes into service; it is
going to be invaluable. The C130, perhaps, is right at the bottom
tactical end of the market. The C17 is very expensive, very competent,
very capable, at the strategic end of the market, and there is
a gap in the middle.
Q170 Mr Jenkin: If you were rebalancing
the programme, this is not one of the items that would be rebalanced?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
I do not think so.
Mr Lester: It is not what is currently
in our sights for being rebalanced, no. Essentially, even with
the pressures on the programme, it is still looking like quite
a cost-effective capability at the moment.
Q171 Chairman: At the end of this
meeting, it does not sound as though we need to take very long
about going into private session.
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
No, no.
Q172 Chairman: A few extra questions
about the aircraft carriers. These are ones to be rattled off.
The 654, or 674, or 700 million, or whatever, extra cost of delay,
does that take into account and include the cost of keeping on
the existing carrier capability?
Dr Tyler: No.
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
No, this is just straight carrier.
Mr Lester: There is an offsetting
saving. If we operate our existing carriers for longer, then we
are not operating the new carriers, obviously.
Q173 Chairman: But, presumably, the
older carriers are more expensive, in efficiency terms, to operate
in some respects?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
Yes, but, depending on how long you have to extend them, you might
not have to refit them.
Dr Tyler: And they are a lot smaller.
Q174 Chairman: Have you made a decision
yet about refitting?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
Yes, we are proposing to refit Illustrious.
Q175 Chairman: The cost of refitting
the Illustrious is not included in this X hundred million?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
No, but we would have refitted Illustrious anyway on the original
timetable. It is not an additional refit, because the carriers
are delayed, if that is behind your question.
Q176 Chairman: That was the question.
The next question is this. I think this £65 million a year,
you said in your memorandum, would be managed by the Department,
how exactly?
Mr Lester: That is one of the
pressures we have to take into account in our planning process,
along with all the other fluctuations in the programme. That is
the process we are going through at the moment and, in the longer
term it is what we will be looking at in the Defence Review.
Q177 Chairman: Along with the Territorial
Army training, the Officer Training Corps—all of those others?
Mr Lester: I expect the equipment
programme to sort itself out and not to be cross-subsidised by
the Territorial Army.
Q178 Chairman: Do you think that
the alignment of the carriers and the Joint Strike Fighters are
now appropriate in terms of timing?
Mr Lester: Yes.
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
Yes, the Joint Strike Fighter will come into service; the carriers
will come into service. Quite understandably, the proposal is
that we have an IOC (an initial operating capability) land for
the Joint Strike Fighter, so the Joint Strike Fighters will be
worked up, the carriers will be worked up and, at the appropriate
point, they will come together.
Q179 Chairman: Do you know exactly
when you will make a decision about the number of Joint Strike
Fighters? You said in your memorandum this will not be before
2015.
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
We do not need to make that decision until 2015. I would imagine
it will be in 2015, but we do not need to make it until 2015.
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