Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
220-239)
GENERAL SIR
KEVIN O'DONOGHUE,
DR ANDREW
TYLER AND
MR GUY
LESTER
1 DECEMBER 2009
Q220 Linda Gilroy: When will they
be fitted with close range weapons systems: Phalanx?
Dr Tyler: I cannot answer you
that question here and now. We can come back to you on that.[7]
Q221 Linda Gilroy: Can I just ask
what will be the additional costs of keeping the existing capability
in service for longer because of the delays to the Type-45 programme?
Dr Tyler: I cannot remember that
number here and now, but it is in the NAO's value for money report
on the Type-45, which was published at the end of last year or
very early this year.
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
I think it was, yes.
Dr Tyler: They did a full audit
of that and it is in their report.
Q222 Linda Gilroy: Just before turning
to a couple of questions on the Naval Base Review, Astute, in
order to maintain the drum beat, confirmation is needed of the
order of a fifth vessel. When is that likely to be forthcoming
and when will the name of the vessel be announced?
Dr Tyler: We have already got
some long lead items.
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
Yes, we have ordered the long lead items, so that is underway.
Dr Tyler: Essentially, what we
are doing with BAE Systems at the moment is ensuring that they
are not without contract cover to sustain their key capabilities
as we move through the Astute programme, but at the same time
we are also ensuring that we are locking down prices that we can
afford for the subsequent boats in the Astute class, and that
balancing act is going on as we speak.
Q223 Linda Gilroy: Is that a code
for the 22-month drum beat being extended a bit and negotiations
being necessary to deal with that?
Dr Tyler: The issue of the drum
beat has a lot to do with the sustainment of the key capabilities,
and clearly that is our biggest concern, to make sure that we
do sustain the key capabilities so that we do not end up in the
territory that we did 10 years ago. We are very mindful of that.
Yes, there is a view that we can extend the 22-month drum beat
a bit, and we are, literally, at this moment, doing studies into
that to be clear about what it can be extended to without compromising
our capabilities.
Q224 Linda Gilroy: It is a very fragile
skills base and, of course, under pressure at the moment insofar
as the nuclear elements of it are concerned from the civil market.
Is that something in respect of which you have an active programme
too?
Dr Tyler: Absolutely, we do. Particularly
within MoD we have got a very, very proactive programme, which
we can provide you more details of, of what we call the NSQEP
(nuclear suitably qualified and experienced personnel). The commercial
nuclear, the growth in that business, is both threat and opportunity.
Clearly there is a threat that some of our experienced staff will
go over there, but it is also an opportunity, because what we
are seeing now is an increase in education courses with a very
strong nuclear element to them. We are getting a bigger market
place of people with the nuclear skills, so in some senses we
will be fishing in a bigger market in the future, particularly
with young people.
Q225 Linda Gilroy: The Nuclear Skills
Academy has a MoD defence dimension to it?
Dr Tyler: I do not know the specific
answer to that, but, again, if we provide you with some information
about our NSQEP programme you will get the answers to all of that
within that.
Q226 Linda Gilroy: On the Naval Base
Review, in your submission you set out a variation on a theme,
but nothing unexpected, of the announcement that was made that
three naval bases would be maintained, but looking ahead there
are number of issues which there is a clear interest in, especially
from the further south-west side of things. When will the Future
Surface Combatant, or the Future Frigate, as I think we are now
calling it, numbers and sophistication of the variants be known?
There is a programme working on that at the moment I understand.
Dr Tyler: We are just going into
the assessment phase, so the blunt answer to that would be not
for some time yet until we have conducted a lot more of the assessment
phase, and I expect that at a strategic level the requirement
will be heavily informed by the Defence Review. So it will be
some time yet.
Q227 Linda Gilroy: In terms of numbers
and types?
Dr Tyler: The numbers, types,
the extent of the capability and so on. It will be some time yet.
Q228 Linda Gilroy: That is something
we can expect to see discussed in the Green Paper?
Dr Tyler: I do not believe it
would be.
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
No, I think the questions will be in the Green Paper. The answers
will come in the Defence Review.
Q229 Linda Gilroy: What is the threat
analysis and how do these relate to them? Presumably, the timetable
for a decision on the base porting of the seven Devonport Type-23
frigates which are there for the next five years, beyond that,
will be affected by whatever those decisions are?
Dr Tyler: Yes, it may be, and,
again, what we wanted to do was to give some medium-term clarity
on the situation, hence the five years, and before that time is
up we will be able to make much more concrete, longer-term plans,
a lot of which, as you appreciate, are to do with the succession
between the Type-23s and the Future Surface Combatant.
Q230 Linda Gilroy: And what the nature
of the new future frigate is?
Dr Tyler: Yes, future frigate,
if you prefer.
Q231 Linda Gilroy: In terms of what
will be looked at—it is a rather more detailed aspect but
one which is repeatedly raised at the Devonport end—what
examination has been given to the lack of accommodation in the
Portsmouth area prior to the base port changes to accommodate
additional vessels—Portsmouth is pretty full at the moment—and
also to the security considerations of having most of the fleet
in one location?
Dr Tyler: I do not think we can
give you a detailed answer to that here and now.[8]
Q232 Linda Gilroy: I think I am flagging
it up rather than expecting you to answer it.
Dr Tyler: We will certainly provide
you with more information. All I will say is that this thing has
been studied very long and very hard and we have not got ourselves
into a situation where the strategic plans that we have got are
not deliverable with the size of the force structure that we anticipate
in the future, but we can provide you with some of the detail
of the analysis that has gone on, if that is helpful.
Linda Gilroy: That would be welcome;
thank you.
Chairman: I think, for one reason or
another, Linda Gilroy would like that information as soon as possible.
Q233 Mrs Moon: Before I start, Chairman,
can I put on the record that I spent part of an industry parliamentary
fellowship with Finmeccanica, so that that is absolutely clear.
Dr Tyler, you said earlier on that part of the time you have been
guilty of your eyes being bigger than your stomach. I think that,
in a sense, has run throughout a lot of today's evidence. In relation
to the Nimrod MRA4, an overrun of £789 million, a 10-year
slippage. Its in-service date should have been 2000. I understand
it is now December 2010.
Dr Tyler: Yes.
Q234 Mrs Moon: Are you confident
that there will not be any further delays?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
Yes.
Q235 Mrs Moon: Will the programme
be implemented in December?
Dr Tyler: I am as confident as
I can be. In the last 18 months, while we have had the sort of
stranglehold around the neck of this project, I think I can say
that we have met all of the key milestones that we have aimed
for, and one or two of them we have been early on. I think CDM
and I would both agree that this is probably, I think the technical
term is, a dog's breakfast. This is probably the single biggest
dog's breakfast of a procurement project that both of us have
handled. We are very much in the very late stages of that programme
now and I can say over the last 18 months that things have been
going extremely well. We have just completed the flight test programme,
which is a major milestone, and we are close to being able to
handover the first of the operational aircraft. That has not happened
yet but we expect that to happen in the near future. The other
thing which I should stress is that, over the course of the 18
months, we have not seen any cost slippage whatsoever on the project,
and we still have a healthy risk provision left in the project,
so I would give it a high degree of confidence.
Q236 Mrs Moon: When will we have
the full capability requirement of this dog's breakfast?
Dr Tyler: I cannot remember when
we will get the ninth aircraft in, if I am honest with you, but
we should have the first one handed over to frontline command
very shortly, and then the others will follow reasonably quickly
thereafter. I cannot tell you when the ninth one will come into
service, but, again, we can provide that information to you.[9]
Q237 Mrs Moon: One of the issues
that has been of major concern to the British public has been
the issue of transport helicopters. In your opinion (and perhaps
Sir Kevin you would like to come in on this), does the Army have
sufficient transport helicopters to support the British Army in
the field? Are we there? Are we getting there?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
There has been extensive work done on helicopters. We do need
to do improvement to the Puma fleet, which I think you are aware
of. There is a submission hovering, if I might say, about how
we might reshape our transport helicopters. Clearly I cannot go
into it now; it is in the processing. I have no doubt it will
be announced very shortly, but we have a plan to increase significantly
the number of transport helicopters.
Q238 Mrs Moon: How do the numbers
relate to the number of troops deployed on active operations and,
also, how does that ratio compare with that for other nations
within ISAF? How are we looking in terms of comparisons to other
nations? Are we under supplied? Do our troops constantly have
to borrow? Where do we stand?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
Some nations do not deploy helicopters at all. We are in a coalition.
All the helicopters out in ISAF are part of the coalition helicopters,
and it is not a question of borrowing so much, it is best use
of assets. I think the Chief of Defence Staff said the other day,
you could always use more helicopters, but there is a sufficiency
of helicopters in theatre at the moment. Yes, we are pushing more
out there. The figures I have got written here: there is a 48%
increase in the numbers of helicopters between June 2009 and June
2010 and a 45% increase in flying hours. They are building up
the whole time but, as CDS said, you could always use more.
Q239 Mrs Moon: Are you happy with
the role Merlin is playing in this?
General Sir Kevin O'Donoghue:
Yes, the first ones are out now. They were in Iraq. They have
been in the States practising, testing hot and high flying in
the conditions that they are going to be flying in. They are now
deploying into Afghanistan.
7 Ibid Back
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Ev 115 Back
9
Ev 115 Back
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