Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
140-146)
DAME HELEN
GHOSH DCB, MR
MIKE ANDERSON
AND MS
ANNE MARIE
MILLAR
11 NOVEMBER 2009
Q140 Paddy Tipping: It is complex, but
it is pretty simple in policy terms. There is loads of money going
into agri-environment schemes, and one of the outcomes we want
is an increase in the wild bird population, and it is not happening.
We can be as complex as we want.
Dame Helen Ghosh: Actually, if
you look at the wild bird population as a whole, it is staying
broadly stable. I have got it the wrong way round. Sea birds are
going that way.
Q141 Paddy Tipping: But the central
point here is that we are spending loads of money on this area
Dame Helen Ghosh: We are spending
a lot of money.
Q142 Paddy Tipping: specifically
to enhance the environment and it is not happening.
Dame Helen Ghosh: It is happening,
because we have stopped that decline. It is not going down. We
have more hedgerows, we have more wild flowers; we have all those
things. The question is when will it start feeding through into
a pick-upthough that is not our objective, our objective
is to halt the declinein those very specific species?
Q143 Paddy Tipping: I am sure we
have got more hedgerows and more wide margin strips, but ultimately
the bird population is a proxy for the
Dame Helen Ghosh: It is, because
they are at the top of the food chain.
Q144 Paddy Tipping: Absolutely, but
despite all this, there has been no real change.
Dame Helen Ghosh: Again, we have
made changes. As you will knowand it is back to the point
the Chairman was making earlierbecause we wanted to get
lots of people to sign up to ELS[36],
and since we made our initial proposals on ELS and got the first
people in, we have been refining and refining what we are prepared
to pay for, and I suspect that process will have to go on, in
the sense of what really works in terms of what has an effect.
For example, if I recollect correctly, you used to get points
for farm plans. You do not get points for that any more, and things
like the Campaign for the Farmed Environment will help us identify
very specific things that very specifically make a difference.
Q145 Paddy Tipping: Over the years we
have talked a lot about SSSIs[37].
You have told us you are going to reach the targets, you are getting
there, but there is still a way to go. Are you going to meet your
target?
Dame Helen Ghosh: Yes, we are
confident that the work of Natural England will get us in good
condition, or improving, by December 2010, which I think is the
target. I think the interesting thing thereafter, which I think
Helen Philips discussed with the PAC, is how do you then set targets,
because improving is not what we want, we actually want it all
to be in good condition. I think that is the next big challenge
and, also, thinking about the question whether we are notifying
the right things in the right places, given the impact of climate
change, and that is one of the things we need to think about.
Q146 Chairman: I am going to draw
this particular session to a conclusion, because I think we have
had a good couple of hours. Just to back up what Paddy was saying,
you get spot stories about individual species of bird which give
conflicting messages and some of the aggregates in the series
in the short-term show, perhaps, marginal changes, but in the
long-term we still seem to be in for the long haul in spite of
the fact of having spent a vast amount of money in these areas,
so I think there is still confusion there. What we are going to
do is draw stumps now and, of the remaining items that we would
like to quiz you ondo not throw away the briefing because
it will come in useful next timewe will tag a few of those
on into the RPA session so that we do not lose that, but there
may well be some that we will drop you a line about. Thank you
very much indeed for giving evidence today. We look forward to
resuming our discussions when we look in more detail at the RPA
next time.
Dame Helen Ghosh: Thank you very
much, Chairman.
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