Defra departmental Annual Report and Estimates - Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee Contents


Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers 140-146)

DAME HELEN GHOSH DCB, MR MIKE ANDERSON AND MS ANNE MARIE MILLAR

11 NOVEMBER 2009

  Q140 Paddy Tipping: It is complex, but it is pretty simple in policy terms. There is loads of money going into agri-environment schemes, and one of the outcomes we want is an increase in the wild bird population, and it is not happening. We can be as complex as we want.

  Dame Helen Ghosh: Actually, if you look at the wild bird population as a whole, it is staying broadly stable. I have got it the wrong way round. Sea birds are going that way.

  Q141  Paddy Tipping: But the central point here is that we are spending loads of money on this area—

  Dame Helen Ghosh: We are spending a lot of money.

  Q142  Paddy Tipping: —specifically to enhance the environment and it is not happening.

  Dame Helen Ghosh: It is happening, because we have stopped that decline. It is not going down. We have more hedgerows, we have more wild flowers; we have all those things. The question is when will it start feeding through into a pick-up—though that is not our objective, our objective is to halt the decline—in those very specific species?

  Q143  Paddy Tipping: I am sure we have got more hedgerows and more wide margin strips, but ultimately the bird population is a proxy for the—

  Dame Helen Ghosh: It is, because they are at the top of the food chain.

  Q144  Paddy Tipping: Absolutely, but despite all this, there has been no real change.

  Dame Helen Ghosh: Again, we have made changes. As you will know—and it is back to the point the Chairman was making earlier—because we wanted to get lots of people to sign up to ELS[36], and since we made our initial proposals on ELS and got the first people in, we have been refining and refining what we are prepared to pay for, and I suspect that process will have to go on, in the sense of what really works in terms of what has an effect. For example, if I recollect correctly, you used to get points for farm plans. You do not get points for that any more, and things like the Campaign for the Farmed Environment will help us identify very specific things that very specifically make a difference.

  Q145 Paddy Tipping: Over the years we have talked a lot about SSSIs[37]. You have told us you are going to reach the targets, you are getting there, but there is still a way to go. Are you going to meet your target?

  Dame Helen Ghosh: Yes, we are confident that the work of Natural England will get us in good condition, or improving, by December 2010, which I think is the target. I think the interesting thing thereafter, which I think Helen Philips discussed with the PAC, is how do you then set targets, because improving is not what we want, we actually want it all to be in good condition. I think that is the next big challenge and, also, thinking about the question whether we are notifying the right things in the right places, given the impact of climate change, and that is one of the things we need to think about.

  Q146  Chairman: I am going to draw this particular session to a conclusion, because I think we have had a good couple of hours. Just to back up what Paddy was saying, you get spot stories about individual species of bird which give conflicting messages and some of the aggregates in the series in the short-term show, perhaps, marginal changes, but in the long-term we still seem to be in for the long haul in spite of the fact of having spent a vast amount of money in these areas, so I think there is still confusion there. What we are going to do is draw stumps now and, of the remaining items that we would like to quiz you on—do not throw away the briefing because it will come in useful next time—we will tag a few of those on into the RPA session so that we do not lose that, but there may well be some that we will drop you a line about. Thank you very much indeed for giving evidence today. We look forward to resuming our discussions when we look in more detail at the RPA next time.

  Dame Helen Ghosh: Thank you very much, Chairman.





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