Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
140-152)
MR PHILLIP
WARD
15 OCTOBER 2008
Q140 Paddy Tipping: Have you ever
tackled how much stuff is going abroad?
Mr Ward: Yes, of course.
Q141 Paddy Tipping: And what the
regulations are, because there are regulations around this, and,
finally, what you would need to do to stop it going abroad?
Mr Ward: I can certainly give
you a note on our views on all those issues. I am not sure we
necessarily share the objective of stopping it going abroad, but
encouraging more of it to be recycled here, certainly.
Q142 Lynne Jones: Before I ask the
question I was supposed to ask, can I quote from the Friends of
the Earth's submission. They say, "The Government displays
a touching faith in voluntary initiatives which is not backed
by any evidence base", and they say that the progress we
have made so far, which is not insignificant but certainly we
lag behind other countries, has largely been brought about as
a result of regulation and incentives such as landfill tax.[9]
So, whilst in response to my colleague's question about whether
we needed a bit of Stalinism you said that the market is working,
the market is only working providing there are regulations and
incentives. You say you are in charge, but really you have only
weak capacity for imposing regulation incentives to try and bring
about best practice. Would you care to comment whether the Government
needs to do more in terms of incentives?
Mr Ward: You say we have weak—.
We do not have any influence at all. We are not a regulatory body.
We cannot fine anybody. We have no regulatory purpose.
Q143 Lynne Jones: You are the ones
who are charged with this job of making sure that the local authorities,
as you put it, converge towards best practice, but have you got
the tools to do the job other than exhortation?
Mr Ward: We have, in everything
we do, we have a very strong basis of evidence and so we have
good arguments, and we are old-fashioned enough to believe that
if you make the argument in the right way, if you understand enough
about their perspective of what the problem is, you can help them
to find ways in which you can deal with their problem and your
problem at the same time. It is not a total solution, and I do
not want to get over philosophical on this, but at the end of
the day what we are increasingly finding is that markets are actually
an efficient way of resolving constraints imposed by outside systems
in one way and another. They are not an independent factor. So,
yes, a regulatory structure puts people in a certain position.
So we work with local authorities who are concerned about achieving
their LATS objectives. One good way of doing that is to increase
their recycling rates. A very good way of doing that is to start
collecting food waste and taking that out of the waste stream.
If we can provide them with good arguments and good practical
ways in which they can do it, then it is highly likely that they
will want to listen to us. That is really the only influence we
have. It is the influence of a sound evidence base presented on
the basis of an understanding of where the other party is so that
we can try to persuade them to do the right thing because they
can see that there is a good solid case behind it.
Q144 Lynne Jones: How successful
have your campaigns been to increase composting and reduce food
waste? I understand Birmingham is the biggest local authority
in the country. I have asked them about this and they are working
with you but they are going to have a pilot which is collecting
from schools. It seems a very timid approach for a city like Birmingham.
Then, going back to the other point, I was horrified to discover
that the door-step collection, which includes bottles, the bottles
are recycled into aggregate, not back into glass, and yet they
get the same credit for recycling into aggregate. The citizens
of Birmingham are there thinking they are doing their bit in recycling
their bottles, and yet it is not being recycled into glass. It
seems that we are really playing at it. We do not seem to be taking
the whole issue seriously enough when you consider the problems
that we are going to face with climate change.
Mr Ward: I have sympathy with
the points you are making and, clearly, glass aggregate is not
a preferred option. A number of local authorities have been going
down this route. Again, this comes back to the PRN system. It
gives the same credit for recycling to aggregate as it does for
recycling to remelt.
Q145 Lynne Jones: So we need to change
the rules?
Mr Ward: We do, indeed. But, again,
this is an example of where we have, as it were, done the research,
we have got the evidence base, we have a story that we can now
go to local authorities and say, "Look, we think you should
do it differently for this reason." There are cost pressures,
and so on, which are going the other way, and I think Birmingham
really ought to be looking very seriously at a separate food waste
collection. It is an obvious thing for them to want to do. They
are one of the people we are knocking on the door of, saying,
"Come on, talk to us about some of these issues", but
the Government's policy at the moment, what the LGA and local
government very strongly want is they do not want central government
telling them how to do things. They want to be left to run their
local areas according to the way their local people want them,
and that is a constraint on us. All we can do is to try and persuade
them.
Q146 Lynne Jones: Even the Local
Authority Waste Advisory Committee is advocating that there should
be incentives in terms of charging, and yet how do we cut through
this sort of political point scoring really? It is not a party
political matter as such because, whichever party is in power,
if they so much as suggest fortnightly collection, then the other
party will castigate them. We need to beef up these messages that
are getting across. Everybody knows about the right thing to do,
and your work helps that, but they are not doing it.
Mr Ward: The answer is they are
but perhaps not fast enough for you. We are making very significant
successes and the numbers of authorities who are introducing food
waste collection is growing significantly.
Q147 Lynne Jones: What do you mean
by significantly?
Mr Ward: I have not got the latest
count in front of me, but the evidence is that people who sell
the kit, the buckets and the bins, and so on, to do this, those
companies are telling us that they are getting very healthy order
books from local authorities, but they do not have to come to
us and tell us about it.
Q148 Lynne Jones: A doubling of their
orders does not actually mean that there is significant amount
of food waste collection, does it?
Mr Ward: Again, you have to look
back at what the issues are. All of these local authorities have
LATS targets to achieve. The LATS targets mean they have to get
biodegradable waste out of landfill. Food waste collections have
to be addressed if they are going to achieve those LATS targets.
The question is when do they do it and how do they do it and do
they do it in the best way, but they will have to do it. I think
they do understand this. The debate at the moment is all about:
if I have a separate one on a weekly basis do I put it in with
the garden waste or the fortnightly basis?" This is where
the debate is at the moment, not whether we should be collecting
food waste or not. These are the issues we have to work with.
Q149 Lynne Jones: You say they have
to do it, but the target in the Waste Strategy is only 50% recycling
by 2020, and there are other countries that are at 70% even now.
So I do think that you are being very complacent.
Mr Ward: I do not think I am being
complacent. They will have to address food waste in order to achieve
their LATS targets, which are specifically based on biodegradable
waste. There is no doubt about that. They cannot achieve those
targets without dealing with food waste.
Q150 Lynne Jones: Can I turn to your
campaign on Love Food Hate Waste. Is there a need for concerted
retailer action to improve information on use-by and sell-by dates
to stop consumers being over cautious about using up food?
Mr Ward: There is. We are working
with the retailers and with the Food Standards Agency to see whether
we can do something to improve both the understanding and the
way in which labels are presented so that people can get the message
from them more quickly. Obviously there is a point to the use-by
date, which is to try and stop people poisoning themselves. Food
preparation skills in this country are relatively low, if you
have been watching Jamie Oliver, so people do need clear guidance
about whether they should or should not eat food, but at the moment
there is complete confusion around the labelling of sell-by, use-by,
best-before, and so on, and this is an activity which we are working
with, with the retailers through the Courtauld commitment and
with the FSA to see what we can do to improve the situation.
Q151 Lynne Jones: You say you are
working with them, but what is actually being done?
Mr Ward: We are meeting with them
to explore the issues. We have some research which we have done
which helps to explain where the consumers are and what they understand
by the labels and what they find confusing, and we will try to
reach an agreement which the retailers can manage in terms of
how they get this information on to the packs, because there is
always a practical problem about how it can be displayed. Can
it be displayed in a common way? That is often an important thing.
If it is in the same place, people know where to look for it and
what it is and then the FSA need to sign it and say, "Yes,
we are happy that. It will protect public safety." We have
got all the parties round the table and we are going to reach
an agreement, I hope, fairly soon about that.
Q152 Lynne Jones: Are you discussing
BOGOFs?
Mr Ward: Yes, we have talked about
BOGOFs quite a lot with the retail sector, and our view is that
the number of BOGOFs which are on offer is dropping and more retailers
are finding alternative offers to people rather than the BOGOF
offer. So I think the message is getting through on that. It has
not disappeared completely, but they are certainly getting less
common on perishable foods, which is the key area where they are
a problem.
Chairman: Mr Ward, thank you very much
indeed for your contribution. Thank you for agreeing to supply
us with some further information. We look forward to receiving
it. Thank you very much.
9 9 Ev 194, para 5 Back
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