Examination of Witnesses ( Question Numbers
380-399)
RT HON
JANE KENNEDY
MP, MR DANIEL
INSTONE AND
MR ROY
HATHAWAY
24 NOVEMBER 2008
Q380 David Lepper: Okay, so the consultation
has not been launched yet?
Jane Kennedy: Not yet.
Q381 David Lepper: There is further
research going on?
Jane Kennedy: That is what I am
advised. Are there other particular products?
Q382 David Lepper: No, I think you
have answered me on the point I was asking about. I am just wondering
if there is any timescale that you might be able to give us for
when that research might be completed and for the consultation
to begin?
Jane Kennedy: I can provide that
to the Committee. I have not got it in front of me.
Q383 David Lepper: Okay. One final
point, Chairman if I may, we have had a lot of information about
household waste, both in terms of targets and improvements being
made and so on, but we do find it a little bit difficult to get
hold of up-to-date data for the commercial and industrial sector.
Is Defra working on ways of making information about waste in
the commercial and industrial sector more easily obtainable?
Jane Kennedy: Yes, and I am aware
that there are gaps in the data that we have available. Defra
has been working with a number of organisations, certainly WRAP
and NISP amongst others, studying how we can provide not only
more data but data that is reliable and gives the sort of information
that not only the Committee but that as Minister in Defra I would
be looking to receive.
Q384 David Lepper: Is there a problem
with collecting that data or processing that data?
Jane Kennedy: It is partly collection
but it is also determining which of the data is going to be of
most value.
David Lepper: Thank you, Chairman.
Q385 Chairman: Minister, just for
the record, it is on page 13 at the top of the Executive Summary
of the Strategy itself, you say: "We intend, subject to further
analysis, to consult on whether the introduction of further restrictions
on landfilling of biodegradable wastes or recycling matters would
make an effective contribution to meeting the objectives laid
out in this Strategy." We were seeking really to know what
you were doing to the question that you as a Department had posed?
Jane Kennedy: I am sorry, can
you say that again.
Q386 Chairman: I could say it again,
yes. On page 13 at the top of the Executive Summary of the document
entitled "Waste Strategy for England 2007", the question
that Mr Lepper put to you was asked because it says in bold type
at the top of that: "We intend, subject to further analysis,
to consult on whether the introduction of further restrictions
on the landfilling of biodegradable wastes or recyclable materials
would make an effective contribution to meeting the objectives
set out in this Strategy." We just wondered what you were
doing and seeing as it was your question we have given you your
own question to answer.
Jane Kennedy: And I have sought
to answer it.
Q387 Chairman: Jolly good but that
is where it came from. Minister, you have an array of talent behind
you here. Would they like to come and sit here? Would it be easier
rather than turning round because it is not easy dealing with
some of this stuff. Do come and take a seat at the front because
we are after the facts and it does not, in the nicest sense, matter
where we get them from.
Jane Kennedy: Would you like them
to introduce themselves?
Q388 Chairman: Yes, tell us who are
they, we would love to know that!
Mr Hathaway: I am Roy Hathaway,
and I am Head of Waste Regulation in the Department.
Mr Instone: I am Daniel Instone
and I have oversight over Defra's waste programme.
Chairman: Excellent. Do chip in because
we are interested in the facts. With no disrespect, Minister,
in the nicest sense we do not mind where the information comes
from; it is the information that counts. Lynne Jones?
Q389 Lynne Jones: I am glad that
you mentioned the National Industrial Symbiosis Programme because
that is run by International Synergies Ltd which is based in my
constituency, and I have to say they are an excellent organisation
with 9,300 industrial members. Of course, a big part of the Waste
Strategy is, as you have said, waste as a resource. Could I ask
you how you are working with councils and the recycling industry
to ensure that the current materials' price volatility does not
undermine public or investor confidence in recycling materials
reuse?
Jane Kennedy: You will have seen
that we have been monitoring very closely the impact of the current
economic climate on price. Defra, and in fact probably my two
colleagues here, was instrumental in convening a meeting with
the Environment Agency, with WRAP and with NISP, to consider precisely
what the impact of the current price was. Bearing in mind that
we have had a year of very high prices in recyclates, a statement
was put out by the organisations concerned, and if you have not
seen that statement we can supply it to the Committee. The statement
set out a number of objectives. Amongst those objectives was continued
monitoring. It also suggested that consideration would be given
to any requests for increased storage facilities and issues of
that nature, but the Environment Agency advise us that at the
moment there is no demand for such extra storage. My response
really is that we are very aware of it, we are keeping it under
close review, and it is being actively followed by the organisations
that take an interest.
Q390 Lynne Jones: One other aspect
of this is improving the quality of the waste which obviously
would make it more useful to potential users. Has that been looked
at? Obviously it varies from place to place but we have seen that
some of the materials recycling centres are not quite so effective
as others.
Jane Kennedy: The issue of the
quality of recyclates has been an issue for a short period of
time, not just in the last few weeks but over the last couple
of years. One of the requests that we have had from representatives
of the various recycling industries is for easier storage rules.
They have acknowledged that the Environment Agency has already
helped with this. They have asked for a moratorium on regulatory
changes to help with some stability over this period. They have
also asked for proactive help from government in finding new buyers
and alternative outlets both in the UK and overseas. Thus their
primary concerns were finding the new buyers. I know there has
been some comment about that publicly recently but both WRAP and
the National Industrial Symbiosis Programme were working on this
and there is a dialogue going on around that to see what can be
done to assist.
Q391 Lynne Jones: That brings me
up to your Delivery Landscape Review for the organisations, some
of whom you have already mentioned. What impact is this going
to have on the programmes to maximise this use of waste as a resource
run by NISP and WRAP?
Jane Kennedy: I am still anticipating
that the Delivery Landscape Review will make its final report
and I am advised that officials hope that that will be by the
end of the year. You will know who the review includes. It is
also considering a number of Defra-funded business resource programmes.
If I could give you some of the pilot projects and programmes.
There is the Construction Waste and Resources Platform, the Centre
for Reuse and Remanufacturing, ActionSustainability and the BREW
Centre. It is also going to be considering the role of regional
development agencies in supporting business resource efficiency,
so it has been pretty wide-ranging. I know that you have had views
about the Delivery Landscape Review itself, but my advice is that
it is on course to report by the end of this year.
Q392 Lynne Jones: What role does
Defra see for funding these programmes because they have had big
cuts this year, even though some of them—and again I mention
NISP—are delivering really well and have a lot of potential
for expansion and are seen as world leaders in actually linking
up what has been described as waste not being waste but "resource
in the wrong place"?
Jane Kennedy: Some of the criticism
that the Department has received about our landscape has been
that it is complex and that it can be difficult for businesses
to navigate, and whilst the individual organisations themselves
have done exemplary work and something over £650 million
has been invested in these programmes of work, there is always,
I am sure, a case for improvement, and that is what I will be
wanting to consider when the report comes up to me for consideration
in the next few weeks.
Q393 Lynne Jones: Do you consider
this as something that is worthwhile for Defra to support or are
you keen to get out of this area of work believing that it should
be the responsibility of the private sector?
Jane Kennedy: All organisations
across government have been under a duty placed upon us being
a responsible government to make sure that the work that we do
is within the budgets that we are set. All of the organisations
with whom we are working are working within budgets that were
determined under the most recent CSR. Some have had their funding
cut. WRAP in particular took a very significant reduction in their
budget. Nonetheless, they have achieved very significant good
work. They have been applauded at virtually every public event
that I have attended and been pointed out to me as an example
of very good investment of public money. We are not going to be
pulling out of funding these bodies. However, we do think that
where business in particular can start to see some environmental
benefits from recycling and using waste in a more effective way,
and using waste as a resource rather than a drain upon financial
resources, and actually seeing income coming into the business,
then there is a good case for government stepping back.
Q394 David Lepper: There has been
a lot of on-going debate, Minister, about the idea of councils
being allowed to charge or reward householders in relation to
recycling or reducing waste. As I referred to earlier, there does
seem to be evidence that household recycling is already being
achieved at a reasonable pace. Do you think councils need powers
to charge or reward householders to help them to meet targets
and are councils actually asking for those powers?
Jane Kennedy: These are the incentive
schemes and my view is that the commitment to enable a number
of pilots is there. We have upon Royal Assent of the, what is
it, the Climate Change Bill—
Q395 Chairman: So easily forgotten;
so recently passed, I cannot believe it!
Jane Kennedy: Because it is not
the Finance Bill—
Q396 David Lepper: It is a different
department.
Jane Kennedy: Because there is
a clear commitment to enable pilots, we will now undertake a period
of time in which local authorities may come forward and seek pilots.
We are not going to press-gang local authorities into doing it.
The range of powers that we have made available to local authorities
have come about largely from on-going discussion with the LGA,
local authorities and others as to what they believe would be
useful powers to enable them to improve their performance, so
it has been very much in response to the requests from local authorities,
but it is very much a matter for them and we will wait to see
what pilots come forward.
Q397 David Lepper: As you rightly
said, the powers are there now in the Climate Change Bill and
the proposal for pilots is there in the Climate Change Bill. Have
any councils come forward yet clamouring to be amongst the first
five pilot schemes? I know it is early days perhaps but were there
indications while the Bill was going through Parliament that there
were councils waiting for the opportunity?
Jane Kennedy: There certainly
is some interest. Whether that interest will convert into actual
bids for pilots remains to be seen. It is still very early days
yet so I do not want to prejudge the outcome of that.
Q398 David Lepper: Whenever a local
council changes its local strategies for collecting waste there
is usually an outcry from residents and local media, particularly
over things like alternate weekly household refuse collections.
If Defra believes that there is a good case for switching to,
for instance, fortnightly rather than weekly collections, is Defra
doing enough to promote the positive aspects of that kind of change?
It often seems to be left to the council to try and defend what
it is doing.
Jane Kennedy: I think that is
the way it should be. I think local authorities are the best people
to decide how their waste management strategy should be implemented.
It is a matter for local determination. That is where there is
local accountability and I do not think we should be in the position
of dictating what local authorities should do.
Chairman: David, just before you go on
David Taylor just wanted to come in.
Q399 David Taylor: Just on that point,
it seems to some seasoned observers of the political scene that
the Government may be putting up local authorities to take the
bullets for them from the Daily Mail and Daily Express
journalists. Do you have some sympathy for that point of view?
Jane Kennedy: No, it feels the
opposite way round, to be perfectly honest. It feels very much
as if the Government is being put in the dock for proposing new
ways of incentivising, which is the language that we use for this,
but I very strongly believe that it is a matter for a local authority
to determine how it wants to maximise its efficiency and its ability
in recycling locally. Local authorities would be very much influenced
by the abilities and the capability of local communities that
it represents to be able to respond to such schemes. It will be
a matter for local determination.
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