Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
40-59)
RT HON
HILARY BENN
MP, PROFESSOR ROBERT
WATSON AND
MS BRONWEN
JONES
13 JANUARY 2010
Q40 Miss McIntosh: I have a couple
more on the other matter. Just to conclude that point, you could
also look at page 78, "Measuring progress", because
it is really very clear on measuring progress as regards food
waste. On page 8 of the document you set out, Secretary of State,
that the Government's core role is to correct market failures
where they arise, and you also talk about special measures which
may be needed in some cases to ensure help is given to the more
vulnerable. You then talk about government trying to find ways
to reconcile big choices and tensions between achieving the vision
for food (and, obviously, we have all got to eat, so that is a
core strategic role), and other major challenges. Can you give
us an idea of where these tensions are, what are the different
choices that you might be asked to make and how you might think
you would reconcile those tensions?
Hilary Benn: We have already identified
one in the course of the discussion so far, the availability of
water and how much agricultural production may be possible in
those circumstances. So there is one thing. Clearly, making the
most efficient use of water is going to be very important for
the future of agricultural production in this country. I think
a second choice is to what extent do you give information, guidance
(including better labelling—whether it is about country
of origin, whether it is about welfare standards or whether it
is about nutrition labelling) and other measures that can be taken
to try and ensure that there is a healthier diet. I am, I have
to say, a great believer in information because, ultimately, when
it comes to what we eat we are responsible; we are responsible
as parents and we are responsible as individuals for what it is
we choose to eat. The evidence is very clear about the link between
a good diet and good health. I think government's role in those
circumstances is to make sure that we have the information, the
guidance and the encouragement. I pick those as two examples of
choices that we are going to have to make, but there will be tensions
in all of this, you are absolutely right.
Q41 Miss McIntosh: Are there any
circumstances where you might feel that legislation is necessary
to implement any of the aspects of the strategy?
Hilary Benn: There might be. Let
us take a very topical example: the Government's announcements
today that we have accepted the Competition Commission recommendation
in relation to the GSCOP. I think the press release described
an enforcement to that effect, an independent person who can make
sure that it is implemented. That will require legislation and
we will consult on the most effective means of doing that. There
is a really good example of where you have been weighing up those
two things. The Competition Commission looked long and hard at
this and we considered what they had to say very carefully. We
have a very competitive supermarket industry and that has been
to the benefit of consumers but, as they themselves said, it is
also to our benefit that we should have long-term sustainable
supply. It is about striking a balance. So there is a very current
example of where you might need to use legislation, in those circumstances.
Q42 Mr Drew: You have cheered me
up.
Hilary Benn: Good. I like to do
that.
Chairman: Right after that bout of therapy!
Q43 David Lepper: It has taken a
long time to get to that point, Chairman—not cheering us
up but the Ombudsman. Good stuff. Can I just return to the first
part of the quotation which Anne McIntosh has just read out on
page 8, I think it is, of the document? "Government's core
role in the UK food system is to correct market failures where
they arise ... " Could you give us, perhaps, an example or
two of what lies behind that? How might that happen? What sort
of circumstances?
Hilary Benn: Let us take an example
of what is going at the moment and look, talking about Europe,
at Pillar 2 of the Common Agricultural Policy. That is all about
trying to use public money for public goods that the market does
not reward. That is really important because we know that if we
do not farm in an environmentally sustainable way then we are
going to have trouble in meeting the increased production that
is required. There is one example. Another would be pollution.
I have just touched on NVZs and water pollution. If you describe
that as a market failure, the Government needs to intervene, and
it will be another answer to Miss McIntosh's question about where
you need legislation in order to protect one of the raw materials
of our society, which is water. Emissions, integrated pollution
control, I would say, is another; waste (we have discussed) is
another; labelling is another.
Q44 Chairman: I am just intrigued.
Those seem to be about not taking into account certain externalities,
but market failure is where markets do not respond to market signals.
In the context of the production sector of food, it has, by definition,
to respond to the externalities of legislation, otherwise it runs
into problems. On page 8, the actual quote is: " ... where
they arise (for example distortions to the food economy caused
by poor information ... " Give us an example of one of those.
Hilary Benn: I think the reason
we are keen on labelling is precisely because in some cases there
is poor information. So, to take the classic example, if you buy
Wiltshire cured ham, a consumer probably would reasonably assume
that the ham came from Wiltshire, and it did not. The code of
practice which the Pig Meat Task Force is working on would deal
with that, as we hope would legislation in Europe, which is why
we are arguing in Europe to strengthen the provisions relating
to labelling. Whether you call that an externality, a market failure
or a lack of information for consumers, it is something that needs
sorting, and that is why we are determined to try and do that.
Q45 David Lepper: I do see the point
you have just made, Chairman. Giving an example in the document
itself of a failure of price externalities, it conjured up for
me an image of a situation where the usual to-ing and fro-ing
of the marketplace somehow is not having the effect one might
expect it to have, and that might lead, perhaps, either to extremely
high prices or it might lead to shortages of some particular commodities
where government might need to intervene. Is that what was suggested
in the document by "market failures" and giving failure
of price externalities as one example? Or have I read that wrongly?
Hilary Benn: In the example of
the Ombudsman and the relationship between those who supply supermarkets
and the supermarkets themselves, the Competition Commission came
to the view that the market was not working quite right there
and has proposed a remedy, which the Government itself has accepted—I
think for the powerful reasons that the Competition Commission
itself set out—and that shows that the Government is prepared
to intervene in those circumstances where we think that something
needs fixing or needs sorting. It depends on a case-by-case basis
and it would depend on what the origin of the problem is and,
therefore, what choices government would have about how it should
respond. With respect, I would not read too much into it, it is
just making the point that one of government's roles is indeed
to look at what needs to be done if the market is not working
effectively. The market works effectively in quite a lot of other
ways, which is the reason why we have very diverse choice of food
and the average family spending 11 per cent of its weekly income
on food now compared to 20 per cent 20 or 30 years ago.
Professor Watson: The market clearly
does not work in the normal sense on environmental pollution,
which is clearly where you need government intervention, not just
in the agricultural sector but the energy sector, etc.
Hilary Benn: There is a cost on
society that is not picked up by the market as it relates to the
production of food or an industrial process which results in things
being made.
Professor Watson: Exactly.
Q46 Chairman: We are going to pass
on now to a little section which deals with the work of the Cabinet
Sub-Committee and the Council of Food Advisers. I briefly touched
on the Cabinet Sub-Committee, Secretary of State. You say it has
met four times. Can you give us a flavour of what you have been
up to in it? What kind of areas have you been discussing with
your colleagues?
Hilary Benn: We have looked at
a number of the things that we have just been discussing in the
last hour.
Q47 Chairman: Do your fellow Secretaries
of State turn up to it?
Hilary Benn: I would have to go
away and look at the attendance list. We have had John Beddington
there to report on the work that he is doing—the Foresight
study; we have had Suzi Leather, who chairs the Council of Food
Policy Advisers, reporting on the work that they are doing, and
we have looked, as Bronwen explained, at the outline for the Food
2030 strategy, and it is DA(F) that has cleared it. I am very
happy to go away and check the minutes of the meeting and drop
you a note on the full range of things that have been discussed,
if that does not breach anybody's rules, if that would be helpful
to the Committee.
The Committee suspended from 4.00pm to
4.13 pm for a division in the House
Q48 Lynne Jones: Why is there virtually
nothing in Food 2030 about the Food Strategy Taskforce
and the Cabinet Sub-committee on Food?
Ms Jones: I suppose
we thought it would be rather boring, because these are internal
Civil Service issues of committee structure which we did not think
would be of any interest to the wide world, but the task force
was set up on the back of Food Matters, the Prime Minister's
Strategy Unit report of 2008. It was a Cabinet Office group whose
job was to oversee delivery of Food Matters. When we reviewed
that after about a year, we thought that it was more appropriate—now
that Defra has a formal lead in Whitehall on food—for Defra
to chair a committee to oversee the task force and Food 2030
and co-ordinate food policy, so we now have a Defra-chaired group
which replaces the task force.
Q49 Lynne Jones: Oh dear, that is
even more complicated.
Ms Jones: I told you it was boring!
Q50 Lynne Jones: What has it been
doing? It has been overseeing the production of this document,
has it?
Ms Jones: The production of this
document, but also the very important job, which Food Matters
highlighted and which the Committee has asked for, of being more
joined up across Whitehall on food policy: so doing a bit of horizon
scanning, what is coming up, and making sure that we are more
joined up than we have been in the past.
Q51 Lynne Jones: It has now been
replaced by Defra.
Ms Jones: A Defra-led committee,
and it is chaired by my director, Brian Harding.
Q52 Lynne Jones: And then is answerable
to the Cabinet Committee subsequently?
Ms Jones: Through Hilary.
Q53 Lynne Jones: The other body is
the Council of Food Policy Advisers, which was set up. What have
they been doing? I gather they have been meeting regularly. They
are due to end. They were appointed for two years. What happens
when their two years is up?
Hilary Benn: I will review that
when we get close to the end of the two years. I set up the Council
because I thought it would be helpful to have some additional
thinking muscle from a wide range of backgrounds, experience and
interest—because this is a sufficiently important area of
work, as the Committee is only too well aware—a kind of
sounding board and an additional pair of hands, if I have not
mixed all of my metaphors. As you know, the three priorities are
identified in their first report which was published in September:
defining a low impact, sustainable healthy diet, which is quite
complex and difficult and not straightforward, the Government
tried to exemplify best practice in health and sustainability
through public procurement and a plan for trying to improve production
and consumption of fruit and veg. So the Fruit and Veg Task Force
came out of the work of the Council of Policy Advisers. When they
put that to me I said, "That seems like a really good idea,
because that is a practical bit of work. We can bring together
all of the people who have an interest in the fruit and veg industry
and consumption", and it has got to work. There has been
a very enthusiastic response. As I already indicated, Suzy Leather,
who chairs it, has come and reported on the work of the Council,
I meet them from time to time, and I think it is really valuable
having this sounding board because some of the tensions which
Ms McIntosh asked about a moment ago are played out in the discussions
in the Council itself, and I think that is a good thing.
Q54 Lynne Jones: Again, there is
little mention of the Council in the report. Presumably their
report fed into this strategy. Have they still got a role to play
now the strategy has been produced, or what has happened?
Hilary Benn: They certainly do.
The Council produced its own report, which is there, and one does
not need to duplicate that, but they are an important part of
the process of taking this work forward and giving me and the
Government advice on what the right things to do are. Another
example of their influence would be the Healthier Food Mark. We
have done the first pilot. They had some views about how it should
be taken forward. Basically, they said you should think a bit
more carefully about how you do this, and I met Suzy and I talked
it through and I thought, "Yes, you have got a good point",
so that is what has happened as a result. There are two very practical
things that have been the result of the work of the Council's
deliberations.
Q55 Patrick Hall: The Fruit and Vegetable
Task Force has been around for ten weeks or so, part of which
has been frozen up with Christmas and New Year and all that sort
of thing, but has it met? How does it intend to go about its task
of increasing fruit and veg production and consumption?
Hilary Benn: It has indeed met.
As to the origin of this, I called together in a round table last
summer a range of people who have an interest in this and said,
"Do you think it would be useful basically to set up a taskforce,
as a result of the discussion we have had today, to look at precisely
these two questions?", and there was a pretty enthusiastic
response. I was there for the first meeting before Christmas.
They have now broken down into subgroups. It is intended absolutely
to be practical, asking the questions, "What are the obstacles
to more production of fruit and veg? What are the obstacles to
more consumption? Who needs to do what?", and they will come
back to me with the product of their work in due course. I think
those who are participating are really up for it, to use the technical
term.
Q56 Patrick Hall: You are waiting.
Hilary Benn: Yes, they had to
work, because they decided how they were going to divide up what
it is that they want to do, and what I have asked them to focus
on is practical steps that we can take, because in the end I am
not quite so much into wrestling with concepts, I am much more
into getting on and doing things, and there is undoubtedly potential
here. It is partly to do with what people choose to buy, which
links back to labelling. If people want to support British fruit
and veg, buy it.
Q57 Patrick Hall: Are you hoping
that what is going to come out of that process, dealing with fruit
and veg, will be practical answers to what the Chairman posed
in the lengthy debate at the beginning about how you translate
the aspiration into strategy and then the practical effects, whoever
has to deal with that, and not necessarily all Defra? Is that
the sort of thing you are hoping to obtain from the task force?
Hilary Benn: Yes, indeed. I am
hoping to get practical recommendations, ideas, things that people
within the industry can do for themselves anyway. It is not just
saying, "Okay, Government, here is a load of stuff for you.
Go away and do it." Everybody has their part to play, and
we have seen that very clearly with the successful work of the
Pig Task Force. What is striking when you look at fruit and veg
production, you look at successes. Strawberries is a really good
example: the growing season has been extended in Britain; it is
an industry worth £200 billion a year and growing (no pun
intended). That is one example. British apples have made a bit
of a come-back in the last four years. It went right down and
then it has risen a bit if you look at the proportion of the market.
Q58 Chairman: You said "British
apples". As the President of the National Fruit Show, are
you not focused on English apples?
Hilary Benn: Both, Chairman.
Q59 Chairman: Good.
Hilary Benn: Why has there been
the decline, and how has this recovery come about and how can
we sustain it? We have fantastic conditions—you know better
than anyone else, Chairman—for growing apples, and there
really is no reason why we should not be producing more and eating
more, but consumers have to do their bit and the industry needs
to say, "This is what we require if we are going to be successful
in achieving that objective", and, in the process, if we
all eat more fruit and veg, that is great for our health.
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