Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
158-162)
SOPHIE CHURCHILL
27 JANUARY 2010
Q158 Chairman: I would now like to
recall an earlier witness to the stand. I am sorry to bounce Sophie
Churchill, the Chief Executive of The National Forest, in inviting
her to come back. I am sorry that we did not give you prior notice
to this, but my attention, Sophie, has been drawn to the evidence
of which you now have a copy. I would not expect you to have read
every detail but, as you can see, a lady called Vicky Allen has
produced a fairly lengthy paper in which she puts on record on
behalf of the British Horse Society, the Federation of East Midlands
Bridleway Associations and obviously herself an agenda for the
horse and its use in the Forest. In the early part of the note
she principally says, "I had hoped that as a result of the
Forest there would be an increase in connected off-road riding
routes", implying that perhaps the Forest had not delivered
to equine users their hopes and expectations. She then goes on
to define more clearly the requirements for safe use of the Forest
by riders and questions what is currently available and provides
a series of conclusions as to the types of facility which she
would consider important, particularly in terms of bridleways,
their routing, sign posting, information to the riders, questions
of payment for access and so on and so forth, and then contrasts
the wish-list with what is available now. I think what she is
saying is that she had hoped for more; she would like some indication
as to what are the forthcoming attractions. I wondered if you
were able to say a few words about this and, if necessary, respond
in a little bit more detail in writing.
Ms Churchill: Thank you for the
opportunity. First of all, I should say that Vicky Allen is a
member of our access and recreation working group; she regularly
comes and her views are very much welcomed and taken into account
alongside those of other users of the Forest. As you can imagine,
as is reflected on the ground, there are very lively discussions
about different users. The first point I think we would make is
that what we are trying to do is to provide an equitable and balanced
facility across 200 square miles for users who have different
needs. I am very prepared to put on record the fact that horses
and horse riders are not suitable for all our routes. We have
talked about minority interests; we have talked about young people,
people who are less able and it simply would not be appropriate
for horses to be able to use all the routes in the Forest, nor,
however, would it be appropriate for mountain bikers to use all
the routes and so on. It is a juggling act which we are trying
to pursue all the time. I am very glad that Vicky Allen has acknowledged
the increase in provision which she does within her paper. She
also very clearly states—and quite understandably—that
it is off-road and connected routes that horse riders really want
and, as we have said this afternoon, we are moving towards a more
connected forest and there will be more off-road facilities, and
if we have our long distance trail there will be loops off that
which will be for particular users. I am very clear that we are
not trying to produce a 200 square mile dog walkers' paradise;
that would not be success in terms of recreation access for the
Forest. However, I think she should be reassured that the more
we connect up the Forest, the more we have loops off a long distance
trail, the more opportunities there will be. I should also put
on record the fact that under our Changing Landscapes Scheme and
the public benefit that is provided through that 100% funding
that we have talked about this afternoon, we are not permitted,
therefore, to assume that business benefit can come from 100%
publicly funded project.
Q159 Chairman: The case that is made
out here is that there is considerable interest from the horse
riding community in "exploiting"—in inverted commas—the
resource that is the Forest and one of the things you made very
clear to us, for example when you were talking about mountain
biking, was that there were people now springing up with businesses
to deliver bicycles to riders with all that goes with it. Is there
a possibility that the same thing could happen in terms of equestrian
facilities?
Ms Churchill: One of our early
large scale agricultural diversification schemes was where a whole
farm went over to forest use and that is where we have carriage
riding and we have a large and successful livery stable there
run in effect by the ex-farmer's wife—he is no longer a
farmer—and that is her business. So from there those stabled
horses can enjoy bridleways and indeed that large ex-farm site.
That is entirely appropriate. I guess that Vicky Allen would wish
that there were many more inter-connected sites like that, but
we do have to go with what the private landowner wishes to do
and with the constraints of our publicly funded scheme.
Q160 Chairman: I notice that one
of the points she makes is that she says it is impossible to devise
a route for a social ride event without either including a high
proportion of roads in the route or getting special permission
to use private land. Do you envisage in terms of the extension
of the connected pathways, which you certainly mentioned when
we visited, that ultimately her wish will be granted because you
will be able to offer something which is compatible with horse
use but which will be a bit more extensive, which is the sense
I get from her submission.
Ms Churchill: I would hope to
a growing extent that would be the case. We know from other parts
of the country, for example the Ridgeway, that there has been
a voluntary segregation of users there because it is not a route
that is suitable for everybody to use all the time. I do not think
we are in a position to give carte blanche to say that those routes
that open up would, a 100% of the time, be available for horse
riding. We would have to manage the interests. As for the roads
issue, the Committee has seen the area; we are not in a rural
idyll, we do have a lot of roads and many of us, if we are cycling
for example, have to use roads some of the time, but the proportion
of road that you use compared with off-road, is getting better
all the time.
Q161 Chairman: I know from my part
of Lancashire when I go out for my Sunday morning bicycle ride,
I often encounter those on horses and we all have to have due
regard and respect for each other and it works quite well. I would
not want to trespass too much into an area which I do not know.
You have given us a general overview and, in fairness, without
the opportunity to prepare in detail, but I wonder if, for the
benefit of the Committee, you could study the paper in a little
more detail and if there are any additional points that you would
like to respond to we can include that in the evidence that will
be published along with our report. As Vicky Allen has taken the
time and trouble to build on what was said at the meeting, I think
it would be very helpful to put a formal response from your good
selves into the report.
Ms Churchill: I would be very
happy to do that. I note also that she does say that the shortcomings
of The National Forest are rooted in government policies so it
may that we would consult with our Defra colleagues in preparing
our response.
Q162 Chairman: Thank you very much.
Ms Allen will know that on the record her concerns have been aired
and that a further response will appear as part of the evidence
in the report. Thank you very much, Sophie, for making yourself
available without notice to conclude on that point. This brings
to an end this short and highly focused piece of work. The Committee
will now work very hard and produce a report. I would probably
envisage that that will come out some time in early March. Can
I thank on the record everybody who has contributed and in particular
those who made our visit last week so worthwhile both from the
point of view of what we got out of it but also the enjoyment
that we had in visiting the Forest and getting to know it a little
bit. Thank you very much indeed.
Ms Churchill: We enjoyed it too,
thank you.
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