Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
MR POUL
CHRISTENSEN
25 NOVEMBER 2009
Q40 David Taylor: Is that what you
are doing?
Mr Christensen: That is what we
are doing.
Q41 David Taylor: You are doing that
now?
Mr Christensen: I am doing that
now.
Q42 Chairman: You mentioned the marine
environment. In your discussions with the Secretary of State,
did you put in a bid to take over the new Marine Management Organisation?
Mr Christensen: No.
Q43 Chairman: Did you think that
was something you ought to be doing?
Mr Christensen: No.
Q44 Mr Drew: I am interested in these
relationships within the different strata of government. Clearly
you have got various organisations that impinge on the marine
environment and I think Natural England needs to have greater
status in that area. Let us take another organisation, English
Heritage, which surprisingly also has a relationship with you
on the marine environment. How do you see yourself playing with
regard to these organisations? I have got a lot of time for Natural
England, as you know, and I think your style, meaning the proverbial
"yours" rather than yours personally, as an organisation
is very important and some other organisations could learn from
you. How will you persuade them that you have got it right and
they have not necessarily?
Mr Christensen: First of all,
you have got to demonstrate that what you are doing is achieving
results. I did say at some stage much earlier in this interview
that one of the strengths I have found in my ten months as Acting
Chair has been a very clear strategy and I would encourage anybody
in a delivery business, which is what we are in, delivering for
the environment, to have a clear strategy about what it is you
want to do and all your staff and stakeholders know what that
is. You have to demonstrate it to start with. It is no good telling
people how to do things unless you can do it yourself. Having
done that, you do need to talk to people. As it happened, I met
the new Chair of English Heritage just last week to talk about
issues around what they are doing and we are doing and some of
the common interests that we have around the natural environment.
A lot of natural heritage is very much involved in the stuff that
we are interested in in terms of the natural environment. You
have to go out there, wear out your shoe leather and talk to these
people to persuade them that there are different ways of doing
things.
Q45 Mr Drew: Can I just come back
in on that? The marine environment particularly does need some
clearer strategy with the Bill now an Act. We do need to recognise
that there are going to be some turf wars. This is the great strength
of Natural England, that you are a very transparent organisation.
Some of the other players in this field in the marine environment
are not nearly as transparent and that must be quite frustrating.
Mr Christensen: I think, Mr Drew,
we concentrate on our agenda and we do not worry too much about
turf wars, frankly, because if we get drawn into that then we
are distracting ourselves from our core purpose. Clearly, relationships
with the new MMO, the Coastguard Agency, a whole raft of them
out there, are crucial but we have a clear strategy laid out,
we have divided the seas into four areas and are going out to
look at what is important there. We are working with all of the
agencies involved, wind energy people, tide energy people. I said
earlier on that you cannot deliver anything without other people
on-side and we have invited—I cannot say everybody with
a marine interest because there seem to be millions of them—all
the main players in the marine business to talk to us and we have
been to talk to them. We have a dedicated member of our staff
now going round the coast talking to fishermen and other people
who are involved in it as we develop where Marine Conservation
Zones can be, where they can have maximum impact on the environment
and minimal impact on people's livelihoods. That is what we are
doing, that is our core business. The turf wars are going to happen
and we do not have to be distracted by them but we have to be
aware of them, that is for sure.
Q46 David Lepper: This is just a
point of fact arising from the discussion you had with David Taylor
about listening to what the other parties have to say on policy.
Leaving aside your involvement with the NFU in the 1970s, I think
it was, have you any history of active political involvement?
Mr Christensen: In general terms?
Q47 David Lepper: Yes.
Mr Christensen: No, none at all.
My politics go in the ballot box.
Q48 Mr Williams: Talking about political
accountability in a way, how do you balance accountability to
the Minister or Secretary of State and accountability to Parliament?
Do you see those in different ways?
Mr Christensen: There is always
going to be a tension round that, Mr Williams. I think I understand
the relationships in a legislative sense. The Acting Chair of
Natural England, whoever it is, is accountable to Parliament but
through the Department and, therefore, the Secretary of State.
I am also aware that I can be held up here as Acting Chair before
you or PAC or other committees, so there is a direct relationship
but we can be scrutinised by you, quite rightly, at any time about
anything. I understand that. If we personalise this, the current
Secretary of State has told me personally, and in public, that
he expects Natural England to challenge his Department, and he
has done that in a very open way I have to say. That brings particular
responsibility on me as Acting Chair of Natural England in how
you discharge that. There are always going to be personal relationships
here as well, but I am quite clear in my view that Parliament
has set up Natural England with its core purposes, the first of
which is to conserve and enhance our natural environment for this
and future generations, and that is why it gets me out of bed
in the morning and that is what I will deliver against, whoever
happens to be Secretary of State at the time.
Q49 Mr Williams: If we take the Marine
Bill as an example, Natural England will have been advising and
you will have had robust meetings with the Minister. On a different
level, employees of Natural England, and the Countryside Council
for Wales for that matter, will have been talking to members occasionally
and perhaps suggesting appropriate amendments to the Bill. How
do you see that working? Apparently, Defra were a little bit unhappy
at one time about that approach.
Mr Christensen: One of the core
purposes of Natural England is evidence, the gathering together
of evidence. To me, that evidence is paid for by the public purse
and should be in the public domain. There are going to be times
when governments do not like that. I am not talking specifically
now about the Marine Bill, but in general terms there will be
occasions when governments are unhappy about that sort of evidence
coming into the public domain. I would resist any attempt to stop
us doing that. I suggest an implication in your question, Mr Williams,
and perhaps you will confirm if this is not true, that Natural
England somehow were trying to intimidate or brief against Government.
We never do that.
Q50 Mr Williams: No.
Mr Christensen: That is not what
we are there to do.
Q51 Mr Williams: No. Natural England
has been working with NGOs and other people and they will be taking
a view on the legislation and how it can be improved, not in a
negative way but in a very positive way. I am just trying to get
the relationship between Natural England, the people who work
for you, you as Chairman and the board. How much freedom would
you give employees to engage in that sort of operation?
Mr Christensen: I would give our
employees a lot of freedom, frankly, but they must not overstep
the mark. It would not be for me to manage that; it would be for
our Chief Executive. If they stepped over the mark I am absolutely
certain that she would come down on them like a ton of bricks.
Our biggest asset in Natural England is our staff. The more I
meet them, the more I go out and see them at work and delivering,
the more impressed I am. We do need to give them as much freedom
to operate as possible. Of course, with that goes responsibility
to do it in a proper manner. In general terms, I would always
seek to give our staff as much freedom to operate as possible
because they are just phenomenal.
Q52 Mr Williams: Have there been
any occasions in your professional career when you have had to
resolve conflicts between your private interests and the wider
corporate or public interest?
Mr Christensen: No. I cannot think
of one, Mr Williams.
Q53 Mr Williams: Have there been
any times when your life or actions you have taken have been the
subject of public scrutiny?
Mr Christensen: If you are Chairman
of Milk Marque, you seem to be --- The answer is yes, on many
occasions and in many guises.
Q54 Mr Williams: You are confident
of coping with that scrutiny and being able to carry out the context
of your job at the same time?
Mr Christensen: Yes. It is like
being here now, when I have to face scrutiny of any description
I am always apprehensive about it, of course I am, which means
I put a lot of effort and time into trying to make sure I have
got the facts right and, therefore, have the confidence to do
it. Where I have been exposed to that in the past, in most cases
I feel I have operated effectively. It is certainly not a new
area for me.
Mr Williams: I am just going to go back
to Agricultural Central Trading, and I would just say I am not
a member of it so I do not declare an interest.
Q55 Chairman: There is a chance to
get a customer!
Mr Christensen: I will have a
word with you afterwards!
Q56 Mr Williams: I am a little amazed
that you seem determined to keep on that interest. You have got
a job here that lots of people would die for as Chairman of Natural
England and I am not saying there will be any conflicts of interest
but would it not be better to just be seen to be focused entirely
on that job? Why are you so keen on maintaining the contact with
ACT?
Mr Christensen: There is a very
good reason actually that may not be immediately apparent. I think
this applies to a lot of people in office. Exposure to something
pretty different from what you are doing, particularly in a commercial
and very competitive field, is good. It gives you a different
dimension and makes you think about things in a different way.
It also gives you a feel for what is going on in an industry that
you actually depend on. Natural England works with farmers and
the health of that industry is important to us in terms of delivering
the natural environment. Therefore, to understand what is going
on there is important. It is more fundamental than that, it is
being involved in a different business operating to a different
model and you pick up ideas and stuff you can cross-fertilise
in what you are doing. I think not just to say, "I'm only
going to do one thing", and I am only doing one other thing,
although I am still involved in Kingston Hill Farm—my son
would not agree—is important otherwise you tend to become
very introvert. I understand some of the broader issues and that
is why it is important to do something else. If it is not going
to be ACT then it is going to be something else.
Q57 Mr Williams: You said you are
going to stand down as a member of the Management Board of Defra
if confirmation of your appointment is made.
Mr Christensen: Yes.
Q58 Mr Williams: Defra has had some
criticism from many people, including this Committee at times,
about the way it is delivering. Do you think it is good to come
from an organisation like that that has had criticism? Do you
think it is good in terms of lessons you might have learnt or
do you think perhaps people will not have the same confidence
in you coming from that type of organisation?
Mr Christensen: Defra has suffered
from adverse publicity. That is probably the understatement of
the day. A lot of that is around one part of the organisation,
if you analyse it, which has had particular problems, and I understand
that. I have been a non-executive director of Defra for two years
and have seen some very significant improvements in the corporate
governance of that organisation. By the way, I have been one of
their biggest critics internally as well as externally. You have
only got to ask the Permanent Secretary as to some of my interventions,
they have been very critical. It has improved enormously in its
governance arrangements. You do learn from being in that sort
of environment. It does inform you about a lot of the issues facing
larger organisations, particularly around IT systems, governance,
accountability and accountability lines, and that does help you.
Q59 Patrick Hall: Can I follow up
on a point raised by you, Chairman, and also Mr Williams? Earlier
on you said that you were going to resign or were in the process
of resigning as a non-executive member of the Defra Management
Board.
Mr Christensen: Yes.
| 
