Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
1-19)
PETER HORROCKS,
RICHARD THOMAS
AND BEHROUZ
AFAGH
4 NOVEMBER 2009
Q1 Chairman: I think our new witnesses
were sitting in at the end of the last session. Mr. Horrocks,
this is your first time before our Committee since your recent
appointment. We formally congratulate you on your new role. Mr.
Thomas, I think you have been before. Have you, Mr. Afagh? No,
you're new, so welcome. Perhaps you could introduce yourselves
for the record, please.
Peter Horrocks:
I am the director of the BBC World Service. On my right are my
colleagues Richard Thomas, who is the Chief Operating Officer
for BBC Global News and has financial leadership for BBC World
Service, and Behrouz Afagh, who is the regional editorial head
for the Asia-Pacific region. I particularly asked Behrouz to be
here today because of the significance of the launch of the Persian
television service in the course of the year.
Q2 Chairman: Thank
you. We will have some questions about that in a moment. May I
begin by asking you a question about your online audience? Your
targets have been exceeded by a very wide margin, and that is
obviously really encouraging. What is your main focus of work
for the future in that area?
Peter Horrocks: I suppose our
main focus is to develop our skills in delivering that journalism
and to develop a different kind of journalism that goes with the
online world, which is much more of a two-way engagement with
audiences than traditional broadcast media, which are about just
pushing information and news out there. The development of our
online journalism, which also feeds back into our broadcast journalism,
is about a closer relationship with the audience and understanding
its needs.
Q3 Chairman: May I ask you about
BBC Arabic Television, which was launched a year and a half ago?
We lobbied very strongly for additional funding from the Foreign
and Commonwealth Office so that the service could have a bigger
footprint in terms of hours of broadcasting. Your target was 7
million viewers for BBC World TV in Arabic, and 18 million users
a week for BBC services overall. Have you achieved those targets,
and have you got any research on what the impact has been?
Peter Horrocks: We have achieved
those targets, but we don't yet have a complete picture because
the Arab world is obviously a very extensive one. We have some
further research in the field. It is important to note that our
future targets are very high. We have a television target of 25
million, and a target of 35 million across the three platforms—radio,
television and online. I believe that we have established the
television service with real credibility, with proper BBC impartial
values, but we are facing significant competition from a number
of commercial television news providers, notably al-Jazeera and
al-Arabiya, which are well established. So we have a lot of further
creative work to do, but we certainly feel that we have established
that foothold in the market.
Q4 Chairman: Have you been taking
audiences from them, or is there a general increase in the audience
for television in the Arab world?
Peter Horrocks: It's hard to know
whether they have directly transferred. I think many audiences
do not consume just one channel. We know from our research that
al-Jazeera is still the market leader, but quite often people
will look at al-Jazeera or al-Arabiya, for example, and if a big
news story has happened they will turn to the BBC to get an alternative
perspective—perhaps a broader one—than some of those
channels might provide.
Q5 Chairman: How would you assess
the reputation of BBC Arabic among its audiences?
Peter Horrocks: The BBC Trust
conducted some independent research into that as part of its regulatory
function, and carried out audience research that examined audiences'
views of impartiality, accuracy, reputation and so on, which all
showed positive scores. We also know that particularly during
the Gaza crisis audiences turned to us in significant numbers,
and we can measure that through the online traffic, the engagement,
questions to our interactive forums and so on. We know, through
some specific research that was done within both the West Bank
and Gaza after that conflict, that the service was very widely
used.
Chairman: It would be helpful if you
could make some of that information available to us for when we
produce our report, if you have it available.[1]
Q6 Sir John Stanley: Mr. Horrocks,
if the test of the effectiveness of the BBC World Service is the
amount of uncomplimentary comments you get from your host Governments,
BBC Persian is doing brilliantly in Iran. Could you tell us what
your current figures for viewers on BBC Persian are?
Peter Horrocks: We have only incomplete
information, and I'm afraid audience research in Iran in these
circumstances is a rather difficult activity to carry out. We
need to do it through telephone calls from abroad. But Mr. Afagh
is more directly involved in that, and can perhaps explain how
we intend to do it and the information that we hope to be able
to have.
Q7 Sir John Stanley: Can you give
us your best ballpark assessment of your viewing figures for BBC
Persian?
Peter Horrocks: I wouldn't want
to put a figure on it. We had some figures about awareness in
the Tehran area, which came from a telephone survey done immediately
after launch. It showed a high level of awareness, but to give
an accurate estimate of the audience is currently difficult, although
that is exactly what we are about to do. We also thought it would
be unfair to do it immediately on the launch, because the broader
publicity around it might affect people's perceptions. Now that
it has settled down, it is the right time to do that research.
We shall be doing that in time for the next World Service annual
review and we will be reporting a figure, although it will have
to be a pretty broad estimate.
Q8 Sir John Stanley: You did have
an actual target. You had a stated target of 3 million viewers.
Peter Horrocks: Yes. I would be
very surprised if we had not achieved that, given the kind of
reaction that we have had from audiences and, as you said, from
the reaction of the Government themselves.
Sir John Stanley: I think that the Committee
would want to know your best judgment as to whether you are achieving
your target before this particular report is submitted to the
House.[2]
Peter Horrocks: It is hard to
be certain about it and I cannot point you to direct evidence
to back it up, but I would say that I am confident that we are
meeting our target. We will be able to put a more precise measure
on it when we have conducted the survey.
Sir John Stanley: You are confident that
you are meeting the 3 million.
Peter Horrocks: Yes, I am.
Q9 Sir John Stanley: Right. What
is your figure for total access, including online—or for
just online separately, if you want to do it that way?
Peter Horrocks: Online is only
a small contribution. The radio audience is much more significant
than the online audience.
Q10 Sir John Stanley: So, total
viewing and listenership—what do you put that figure at?
Peter Horrocks: I would put that
in the order of 5 million; something of that nature.
Q11 Sir John Stanley: You had
a target initially of 10 million, didn't you?
Peter Horrocks: Yes.
Sir John Stanley: So you are some way
below that at the moment.
Peter Horrocks: We are, but we
haven't done the research yet to be able to be certain about the
television audience. There is a potential audience of over 100
million people who speak Farsi, so it could easily be in excess
of that figure, but I do not want to commit to a figure until
we have done the research, because that would just be guessing,
which would be the wrong thing to do.
Q12 Sir John Stanley: If there
is any further information that you can give us on the total access—radio,
television, online—in relation to your 10 million target
before this report is closed, that would be very helpful.
What are your current hours on BBC Persian TV?
Peter Horrocks: Can I turn to
Mr. Afagh, whose responsibility it is?
Behrouz Afagh: Perhaps I can explain
that the 10 million figure that you mentioned is our target to
reach within three years, and we are about 10 months after the
launch. At the moment our television programmes are going out
to Iran from 5 o'clock in the afternoon until 1 o'clock in the
morning local time, which are the peak hours. We are broadcasting
eight hours a day within those hours.
Q13 Sir John Stanley: Are you
seeking to expand that? We understand that you want to do that—have
you got funding in place? What are your plans for the expansion?
Peter Horrocks: The approach that
we have taken is that we extended it during the immediate crisis
following the disputed election, and provided more hours in that
period. We have reverted back to the original eight hours, and
we are considering extending those hours as part of the wider
reprioritisation that we are currently considering across our
whole strategy—looking against other priorities and other
services that we may wish to launch. We will look at the effectiveness
of extending those hours. There may be ways in which we can do
it in quite a cost-effective way, by repeating some of the programmes
from the main part of the schedule and having short news updates—we
are looking to do that in a cost-effective way—but we have
not yet decided whether to commit to that, partly because of the
uncertainty about resources more broadly.
Q14 Sir John Stanley: Again, if
you have any further information on translating your possible
expansion plans into reality before we finish the report, it would
be very helpful to have it. Can you tell us what degree of deliberate
disruption you are being exposed to from the Iranian authorities?
Peter Horrocks: That happens in
two ways, one of which is the disruption to BBC's journalism on
the ground. The BBC World Service and the Persian team itself
were never allowed to have journalists in Iran, but the BBC News
correspondent, Jon Leyne, was thrown out of the country in the
immediate aftermath of the disputed election, so we no longer
have direct journalistic resource on the ground. In terms of the
television service in the weeks after the election, we were subject
to concerted satellite jamming with signals being sent from within
Iran up to the satellite, which was beaming our signal down, and
that took our broadcasters and a number of other broadcasters
off the air. We purchased satellite space on alternative satellites
with different angles into the country and our viewers needed
to readjust their satellite dishes to get our signals, so we were
able to continue broadcasting for people to receive our signal.
When the protests on the streets died down, the jamming declined
and we have been able to revert to some of our original broadcasting.
Q15 Sir John Stanley: Just following
on from what you said about sadly not being able to have anyone
on the ground at the moment, how far is that constraining you
from getting a fully objective, factually accurate account of
what is going on there as best you can? Is it making you unduly
dependent on what you are getting from, say, exiled sources out
of the country who may lack a degree of objectivity?
Peter Horrocks: It is clearly
not ideal. First-hand reporting is absolutely at the centre of
what the BBC tries to offer, wherever it is possible. There are
agencies still operating there, which provide stories in both
text and video on which the western agencies can rely, and we
receive both information and pictures on video from our audiences.
That plays a more important part in all of our programming across
a range of services than it used to. We need to treat it with
care and, clearly, it comes generally from one side of the argument.
Both Mr. Afagh and I have stressed to the editorial team the importance
of maintaining the impartiality of the service through this period,
and we continually invite all ranges of opinion in Iran on to
the programming. It has been notable that it has been a place
where a wide range of people—not only people in opposition
or reformist movements—have appeared and given their views.
We have a real commitment to making sure that it covers a broad
range of views in Iran. That is important for our own principles,
as it is for the credibility of the service within the country.
Q16 Sir John Stanley: Iran has
a very high percentage of internet usage. Is it relatively easy
for individuals to be able to feed information to you? Are they
putting themselves to a degree of risk? How far are you getting
worthwhile information from that particular source?
Peter Horrocks: They do, and people
take risks. There was some throttling of the internet capacity
at the height of the protests when bandwidth was controlled by
the Government both to stop information getting out and information
getting in, but that is now behind us. Some members of the audience
choose to comment anonymously. As you can understand, there are
good reasons for doing that. But other people do appear and give
their names. They take part in our interactive programmes. They
send us a text message. We phone them back and they will contribute.
A number of people are prepared to contribute and give their names.
Sir John Stanley: Brave people. Thank
you very much.
Q17 Mr. Hamilton: Before we move
on from Iran and the Persian language Service, I want to say how
very pleased I was to be able to support its launch in January.
The Committee has been very supportive of what has been done successfully.
I wonder whether at any kind of high level, our Government and
the Foreign Office have received protests from the Iranian Government
over the Persian language TV service. Have you received anything
formal or official from the Iranian Government?
Peter Horrocks: I do not think
that we have had formal protests. It is just through commentary
in the newspapers, statements from Ministers and so on that are
publicly reported. Every other day there is a commentary in Iranian
newspapers about the international media, and they usually refer
prominently to the BBC Persian service as part of that. I am not
aware of any formal protests.
Behrouz Afagh: I am not aware
of any either.
Q18 Mr. Hamilton: Do the Americans
do a similar service or are we the only western country that broadcasts
in Persian?
Behrouz Afagh: They do. The Voice
of America has been broadcasting television programmes to Iran
for a long time. It comes under criticism from the authorities
in Iran as well, but the BBC is singled out more, largely because
it is new and it seems to have attracted a very large audience,
particularly among the youth. There have been special Iranian
parliamentary reports and reviews of the impact of the BBC and
hardly a day goes by without some kind of big analytical piece
in the Iranian press, or comments from authorities. Really, to
summarise, they are mostly suspicious of the BBC's or UK's intentions,
but they are all saying that the production and editorial quality
is very high, and that, particularly with the young audiences,
the Iranian state media need to do something to compete. There's
even been a big debate about allowing private channels to start
in Iran, since the launch of the BBC. So although all western
media—particularly in Persian—in Iran come under criticism
as part of the suspicion that they have, the BBC is singled out,
usually.
Q19 Mr. Hamilton: Is it still
the case that you have the highest number of hits on the BBC website
on the Persian language service? I remember a few years ago being
told that of all the worldwide BBC services the Persian language
had by far the most.
Behrouz Afagh: It is still among
the highest, but I think now sometimes Urdu sites or Brazilian
sites get larger hits, but it's certainly one of the top.
Mr. Hamilton: I have to say I was very
impressed when you invited me to do an interview and I had the
simultaneous translation in the earpiece, and I had the interviewer
interviewing me in Farsi, and then the English was simultaneously
translated over the air. It was very good.
Chairman: If we can move on. Ming Campbell,
still on Iran.
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