Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
60-84)
MS FIONA
BLACKE, MS
PETA HALLS
AND MR
ADNAN MOHAMMED
12 JANUARY 2010
Q60 Chairman: What happened to the
Government's proposals that money in dormant bank accounts should
be used to fund the Youth Service?
Ms Blacke: I think it was the
Government's proposals that that money would be used to fund youth
centres.
Q61 Chairman: Whatever it was supposed
to be for, what happened to it?
Ms Blacke: They are not necessarily
synonymous.
Q62 Chairman: No, but did they build
a single centre?
Ms Blacke: Yes. There are a number
of My Place Centres. Some of you will have those, with young people
intimately involved in the design and shaping of those organisations,
like the Sorrell Foundation working with young people.
Q63 Chairman: Would you have a list
of these centres?
Ms Blacke: Absolutely.
Chairman: It would be very helpful if
you could let us have them.
Q64 Gwyn Prosser: Ms Blacke, you
have mentioned some of the youth funding schemes which the Government
is putting in through local authorities. In my Dover constituency
the Sea Cadet Corps have just failed to access the £30,000
which would ensure their continuance, because the MoD are selling
off their property. Perhaps I should declare an interest there,
Chairman. In terms of these various funding schemes, Capital Fund
Plus and the other funding, what is your view of the future in
terms of spending cuts across departments? What sort of impact
do you think the work you are doing and the work your colleague
is doing will have in terms of keeping young people off the streets?
Ms Blacke: We are currently doing
a survey in England of the proposed cuts that heads of integrated
youth services are being asked to make in every local authority.
We are doing that in conjunction with the heads of young people
services. The indication at the moment is that in almost every
area people are being asked to plan for significant cuts in youth
services, sometimes in excess of a third of those budgets. It
is not that local authorities think they are unimportant or that
directors of children's services think these are unimportant services;
the problem is that once you take direct schools grant out of
the local authority equation for children's services and they
are having to make 10% cuts as a result of loss of capital receipts
or other rises in costs or perhaps the Icelandic affair, you are
finding that there is a much bigger hit on youth services than
you might expect. I am not optimistic. The other thing to note
is that those cuts in youth services are not about mainstream
local authority services, because those directors of children's
services are also then the ones who are commissioning or grant
aiding local organisations and voluntary organisations to deliver.
The other thing I would say, and it perhaps answers a little the
question in relation to the partnership approaches to the delivery
of crime prevention and preventative services, is that there has
been some fantastic joint working between police, health, local
authority youth services, voluntary organisations, inter-safety
partnerships coming together to do this. The problem is that when
you come to a recession, when every department is looking at its
budgets and how to make savings, the natural instinct is to cut
those things which are not core, and we are already getting reports
of that.
Q65 Gwyn Prosser: In particular,
are you aware of any moves to cut the Youth Capital project, for
instance?
Ms Blacke: No. In terms of the
Capital projects, I am not aware of cuts, although we still do
not know what is going to happen to the bulk of the unclaimed
assets.
Q66 Gwyn Prosser: Have you heard
anything about plans to cut the PAYP?
Ms Blacke: PAYP is not a discrete
budget. It is not ring-fenced. In many local authorities, when
they are talking about 10% or 20% cuts in service, PAYP falls
into that, so I think we are already hearing about services being
cut.
Q67 Martin Salter: There has been
a lot of work done and a lot of talk about the value of engaging
ex-offenders in working with young people at risk of getting involved
in crime and antisocial behaviour, but it seems not to be that
successful in achieving that. What barriers do you think there
are to engaging ex-offenders in this process—obviously Adnan
is doing valuable work—and what more could be done to encourage
them?
Ms Blacke: I will let Adnan say
something in a minute, because I know he has a particular view
about some of the barriers. There are issues around CRB checking,
not the process of Criminal Records Bureau checking but the risk
assessment associated with that. If, as an employer, you get a
positive Criminal Records Bureau check back on someone, you then
undertake a risk assessment process to decide whether you are
going to let that person undertake the duties and what you need
to put in place to make sure the young people they are working
with are safe. Most employers are very unsophisticated in that,
so there is an instant reaction. The other is about access to
training in youth work. I was involved 15 years ago in a project
in a Young Offenders Institute where we trained young people to
be literacy tutors. We accredited them in adult education qualifications.
It would be great if we had similar things happening in some of
our young offenders' institutes, whereby young people could access
level 1 youthwork qualifications and begin to develop those skills
and then come out and use it with their peers, because it does
seem to me that would be incredibly helpful.
Mr Mohammed: Not just the CRB
checks, but the way I got involved with the work I am doing at
the moment was through User Voice, a charity started by Mark Johnson.
He is a columnist for the Guardian and if you read one
of his pieces where he was writing about the CRB checks as well,
this is a big problem because ex-offenders are most impacted by
people who have been through the same experience that they have
been. These are the people that most likely they will listen to.
If you remove young ex-offenders talking to young people, then
the only thing we are left to talk to is people that we have always
felt are on the other side to us, either clinical psychologists
or social workers. We are speaking to civil servants mainly and
people that we feel have always tested us. We cannot relate to
them. It is very important that, as long as there is risk assessment
as standard, I think ex-offenders should be able to talk to and
mentor others.
Q68 Martin Salter: For the clerk's
benefit it would be very useful to note that recommendation about
level I youthwork course in young offenders' institutions. Should
we not be saying that there is a massive advantage in people having
been involved in the criminal justice system in this type of work,
so that far from being a barrier, it could almost be a qualification.
Mr Mohammed: 100%. Our life experience
is our qualification.
Martin Salter: I agree entirely.
Q69 David Davies: There is a lot
of talk here, I have heard it today and I hear it all the time,
that the police must do more to engage with young people and must
understand their point of view. Turning it around, as somebody
who is a Special Constable myself, who has been abused on the
street, may I say, by young people, do you not think there might
be an argument for saying young people ought to understand what
it is like to be a police officer, to work eight hours, 40 hours
a week, to be abused, spat at, not treated with any respect whatsoever?
It is not surprising that in some instances, unfortunately, police
officers perhaps say things that they should not say when they
are confronted yet again with somebody who is having a go at them
for no good reason.
Mr Mohammed: Time and time again
the police are seen as being the enemy when they are not. They
are there doing their job and they should enforce the law at all
times. At the same time, with the school system we have in this
country, it detaches people from knowing what their nine-to-five
is. The young people have no idea. When kids are young and they
are in primary school, they like police officers. When they get
to high school, that is when they start disliking the police.
That is the crucial time that the work should be done between
the police and young people.
Ms Blacke: Mr Davies, we can send
you examples of projects we have been involved in brokering relationships
between the police and young people, and older people actually,
to have discussions about how policing should take place and the
relationships they should have. Peta has been very involved in
work in Birmingham and around that area.
Q70 Mr Clappison: Adnan has touched
on what I wanted to ask about. We do appreciate the work you are
doing in this field. Could I draw on your personal experience
a little bit more and talk about your experience of institutions.
What sorts of programmes were available for you when you were
serving your sentence for helping you to stay out of trouble?
Mr Mohammed: I think there were
a lot of course that were meant for tick boxes, a lot of courses
that were there just so that people could say that they had done
something. I think we have missed the whole point of prison. It
is there as a punishment, but it should be there to rehabilitate
people as well. I think we just storage people: put them in storage
and leave them to fester and then they come out with no skills.
They do not understand. I was asked the question once: what would
I change if I went back? If I had the power, what would be the
one thing I could change? I said I would change the first month
when you are in prison, because I think that is the most effective
plan. If people were shown, "Look, you have done something
wrong, this is your punishment, the judge has given you this and
the jury of your case has found you guilty, but at the same time
we want you to come back out and be a positive member of society,"
if that was enforced right from the start, that would help people
and that would empower them to change their lives. While I was
in prison, no courses. The first rule is that only the offender
can stop offending, so if you do not choose to stop offending
in the first place, prison does nothing for you. There is nothing.
We should not kid ourselves to think that when you put someone
in a cell, and it is a small cell, that is what changes them.
It really does not. It is the person who changes himself.
Q71 Chairman: Did you learn any more
criminal activities while you were in prison? Did you learn to
do more than you knew before you went in?
Mr Mohammed: If I went in with
that intention, I could have. I could have learned a lot more
if I had wanted to, but that was not my intention. That was only
because it was the choice that I made. It was nothing to do with
the prison environment I was in.
Q72 Mr Clappison: On the positive
side, was there any practical training offered to you; for example,
to get another skill, to learn something?
Mr Mohammed: They emphasise basic
skills, as in numeracy and literacy, and I think that is the target-driven
side of it, where they try to help as many people that have low
numeracy and English skills basically.
Q73 Mr Clappison: That is a good
thing. What about if somebody wanted to do a course in, say, construction,
mechanics or something like that, something practical which would
help them to get a job when they came out?
Mr Mohammed: Unfortunately, if
you were to go to a prison today, you would see that there are
workshops where you go to where the prison makes money from the
people who work, and it is not really geared to help people to
learn new skills.
Q74 Mr Clappison: It is not training
them.
Mr Mohammed: It is not at all.
Q75 Mr Clappison: It is not giving
them skills.
Mr Mohammed: Not at all. When
I was in the camp on the Isle of Wight, there is something called
Prison Council and we made some suggestions. They were always
telling us there was not enough funding, so we said, "Why
can't we have the prisoners that are in the prison with us"—the
mechanics and the electricians that have skills—"empowered
to let us help learn the skills?" If you had the workshop,
the space, and then you had a conveyor belt of offenders to be
able to use that to teach others, then that would help them and
that would help us as well. They could not see the mutual benefit.
Q76 Patrick Mercer: Are there any
key recommendations which you would advocate in this area?
Ms Halls: I want to go back to
the point about having a trusted person in young people's lives.
That is really, really important. Whether the young person be
involved with the youth offending service, whether they be out
in the community on prevention programmes, or whether they be
within a youth club, one of the overwhelming concerns and requests
from young people is a constant responsible and trusted person
in their lives.
Ms Blacke: There is going to be
in the region of £360 million going from custodial budgets
out to local authorities or sub-regional partnerships. If even
a small percentage of those was focused on prevention, on ensuring
that there were activities when young people needed them and that
young people were involved in shaping those activities—and
I am not talking about mainstream young people, I am talking about
young people like Adnan—then I think that would make an
absolutely enormous difference.
Mr Mohammed: The main thing we
could do is include people within the system, because we always
feel like we are being dictated to, we always feel like we are
being talked at and not being talked to. Right now, I know so
many of my friends and people I have grown up with that have no
idea that there is a Home Office Select Committee that is going
on that is trying to solve these problems. Why am I the only young
person here? Should we not be involved in the solutions? We are
part of the problem: should we not be included in the solution
as well?
Q77 Chairman: How many members of
your group User Voice are there?
Mr Mohammed: User Voice only started
six months ago. It is really for ex-offenders. We say that only
offenders can stop re-offending, so if you do not include us in
the whole picture—and not as a token, because we have got
some great ideas of ways to solve it—
Q78 Chairman: Mr Mohammed, there
is a way of doing this. Why do you not get together a group of
people? We will either visit them wherever your community group
is or we would like them to come here. If you feel this is too
intimidating, we will come to you.
Mr Mohammed: It is not a community
group. User Voice is a national charity.
Q79 Chairman: Yes, I understand that.
I am saying that here is our challenge to you. You have made a
very valid point: we need to include you and we need to include
young offenders. We want to get to the bottom of this. Why do
you not get together a suitable group of people, the kinds of
people the Select Committee on Home Affairs should talk to, so
that it is not just men and women in suits talking to you—at
you, as you say—but involved in a dialogue, we would be
delighted to give you that challenge and we would be delighted
to work with you. Can you do that for us?
Mr Mohammed: 100%. I am delighted.
Q80 Chairman: Could I ask you one
question of a personal nature. Why do you think people commit
crimes? You may want to draw on your own experience. Why do they
go out and commit crimes in the first place? Is it the dysfunctional
family that we have heard about? Is it poverty?
Mr Mohammed: To be real honest,
it is the socio-economic background and situation that you find
yourself in. As a young person, I did not ask to be brought up
in the environment I was brought up in, but that is where I found
myself. When I walk out of my front door and I do not feel like
I am being involved in anything, I feel everything is happening
to me. You feel victimised to a certain extent, and from there
there is a resentment that grows. If you then go back to your
house and you live in a dysfunctional house, then that just exacerbates
the situation. But if I tell you the truth, I did not come from
a dysfunctional background. I have got a great mum. My mum is
very law-abiding. She always taught us right from wrong. But that
was not why I committed crime.
Q81 Chairman: Then why did you commit
your crime?
Mr Mohammed: The reason why I
committed crime was basically financially. That was the real reason
for it. Because I did not want to do the nine-to-five. I saw people
like you walking down the road. I have seen you on television—
David Davies: We do not want to work
nine to five either. It is the only way to make a living.
Q82 Chairman: Let us keep focused
on this.
Mr Mohammed: Basically I did not
want to do the nine-to-five and struggle when I looked out my
front door and I saw other people that did not have to that, that
were above the law to a certain extent. I did not have the motivation
to be a part of society. I was not given that motivation. I was
not empowered enough to think I could do it. I was very bright
at school. I am at university. I have been at university.
Q83 Chairman: It is because of that
you felt you had to go out and commit your crime. What was the
crime that led to you going to prison?
Mr Mohammed: I was in prison for
five counts of robbery.
Q84 Chairman: And you did it because
you needed the money.
Mr Mohammed: It was not that I
needed the money. It was not even that I needed the money; it
was that someone owed me the money and I got my money back off
them. But then they went to the police and said that I robbed
them, and when we went to court I was not believed. That is just
how it simply happened. But I was guilty for my crime. I really
was. But the question you are asking, Chairman, what you are trying
to get at is why did I commit the crimes in the first place, and
the fact of the matter is that it is the socio-economic background
that you find yourself in. That is first, and then, on top of
that, you get hurt and you feel disenfranchised by this whole
big machine that is British life. That is what it is. Because
I walk around the streets and I see people like you in suits and
we do not live in the same world. We do not live in the same world,
we really do not. We could walk past you and we could be on the
tube, we could walk past you on the streets, but we do not live
in the same world. My problems at night are not the same problems
you have. The pain and the problems I went through, where do I
get help from? Who helps me? Is it my MP? Is it the police? Is
it the social workers? Where does the buck stop at the end?
Chairman: Thank you. It would be very
helpful if you would get together a group of people we can talk
to and engage with, because these are very serious matters and
we want to conduct a serious inquiry into dealing with the reasons
why we prevent crime. That would be very helpful. I would like
to thank our witnesses very much. Thank you.
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