Examination of Witness (Question Numbers
40-48)
PROFESSOR LES
IVERSEN
9 MARCH 2010
Q40 David Davies: Professor Iversen,
again I wonder if you could clarify something for me. You gave
a strong indication earlier on that you think that mephedrone
ought to be banned. You certainly did not deny that and my interpretation
of your comment that it was an extremely dangerous substance was
that you might be leaning towards that view, and yet you nearly
resigned over Professor Nutt's insistence that we should be looking
at downgrading another drug like marijuana. Is there not a deep
inconsistency here? You cannot be one minute saying that drugs
that have a sexy image in the press, like cannabis, should be
decriminalised and then the next minute, because people are dying
from another drug, be saying that they should all be banned. Surely
the Home Secretary has got a right to some consistent view. You
either think drugs are bad—well, we all think drugs are
bad, but either you think that generally they should be legalised
and dealt with that way or that they should be banned and dealt
with that way.
Professor Iversen: It is a little
bit more complex than that, though, is it not, because our Misuse
of Drugs Act created three different classes of evilness in drugs—A,
B and C, and they carry different criminal penalties, quite significantly
different. Part of the Advisory Council's remit is to advise the
Home Secretary not only on whether a particular substance or group
of substances should be banned but also into which class they
should fall, and we have a third job, which is that if a drug
that is banned has any medicinal use it should be scheduled accordingly
and either allowed freely or not so freely to the medical world.
Q41 Mrs Cryer: Professor Iversen,
I am sure you aware that this Select Committee did quite an in-depth
inquiry into the cocaine trade, and at the same time that our
report was published the Government suggested that your Advisory
Council should do a report on the cocaine trade. Do you think
you will be using any of the recommendations that we made?
Professor Iversen: I have just
for the first time had the opportunity to look at your report,
which I think is an excellent piece of work, and, yes, indeed,
the Advisory Council will make extensive use, I am sure, of the
material that you have gathered. It is very interesting to see
that your group has come to the same conclusion as ours in suggesting
that a review is needed, namely, that one of the reasons we gave
this advice was that we considered that the perception of cocaine
has somehow softened in this country to the extent that some users
now believe it to be a relatively safe drug. I can tell you as
a pharmacologist who studies drugs that work on the brain that
this is one of the most addictive substances known to man, it
is certainly not safe and the risk of death from overdoses is
definitely there. The idea that seems to be gaining ground somehow
that powder cocaine is somehow all right for middle class users
and crack cocaine is what the down and out on the street corner
is using is a complete misconception. We are not, I am glad to
say, going to suggest reclassifying cocaine from its present Class
A status, but part of our job, as part of your remit was, is to
make information more widely available about the dangers of this
drug. Our focus, of course, will be on the medical issues and
the social harms rather than the cocaine trade, which you have
done a very excellent review of. Yes, we shall be coming to you
for advice.
Q42 Gwyn Prosser: Professor Iversen,
the Members of the Committee who took part in the inquiry into
cocaine will be delighted to hear your last comments. In my view
that issue of perception of cocaine being harmless, socially acceptable
and enjoyable, compared with the reality which you have just described—sudden
death sometimes, brain damage, very addictive—was the crux
of everything we did. I cannot speak for the Committee, but anything
that can be done to highlight the realities of that would be most
welcome.
Professor Iversen: Thank you very
much. I should say that our review of cocaine has not even started
yet. As you have seen, we have other priorities on our plate at
the moment, but I hope to get that going by mid-year. As always
in these reviews there will be public sessions, we will bring
in outside experts and will ask for evidence from all quarters.
We will do a very thorough review.
Q43 Chair: To end where we started,
I have just been passed a note that another woman age 24 was found
dead yesterday possibly after taking mephedrone. John Moores University
in Liverpool is proposing to conduct a number of experiments on
students showing whether or not they have been able to survive
the weekend high of taking this particular drug. What is your
view about the use of students for experimentation of this kind?
Professor Iversen: I am completely
unaware of the experiments you are talking about in Liverpool
so I am not really able to comment.
Q44 Chair: This is something the
university is doing. They are asking those who have been out for
the weekend who have taken mephedrone what is the effect that
the drug has had on them and then monitoring them a few days later.
Professor Iversen: I cannot comment.
Q45 Chair: Maybe we can pass you
the information.
Professor Iversen: If you can
give me more information I would be happy to comment on that.
Q46 Chair: You are very clear that
by Monday there will be a report on the Home Secretary's desk
about this drug?
Professor Iversen: By Monday afternoon
after the Council has met, yes. Gathering evidence on mephedrone
is actually quite hard because this compound has not been around
in this country for very long. In fact, it is remarkable how quickly
this fashion for taking mephedrone has suddenly grown. For part
of our evidence we have had to rely on the self-reports of users
and those have been collated to some extent by the Mixmag
magazine, which you may not be familiar with, it is a magazine
that is devoted to the dance and nightclub scene, which undertook
a review of quite a respectable size conducted by an academic
from King's College of more than 2,000 young people who habitually
go to these places. Of those 2,000, 41% admitted having taken
mephedrone at some stage and one-third admitted being regular
users. Apart from those numbers, the Mixmag survey also
revealed self-reported harms and we have a fairly big body of
self-reported harms from that type of source so I would not say
asking users what their experience has been is not useful sometimes.
Q47 Chair: You would agree it would
be a tragedy if there were any more deaths from this drug?
Professor Iversen: To use students
as an experimental model does sound pretty unethical, but I really
should not comment on the Liverpool study.
Q48 Chair: You would agree it would
be a tragedy if any more young people died during the time it
took for you to get your report together and the Home Secretary's
decision?
Professor Iversen: Of course.
Chair: Professor Iversen, thank you very
much indeed for coming to give evidence today. I am sure our successor
Committee will want to see you in the future. Thank you very much
and the best of luck.
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