Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
20-39)
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER
TIM GODWIN
AND CHIEF
CONSTABLE GILLIAN
PARKER
24 NOVEMBER 2009
Q20 Mr Streeter: I have
two questions for Mrs Parker. First, can you clarify, looking
ahead to 2010-11 and 2011 and beyond, that whichever party wins
the next election, these are figures which are coming at you and
it is not a question of judging one party against another. Is
that right?
Chief Constable Parker:
Yes.
Q21 Mr Streeter: This
is coming down the track at you, whatever the outcome of the next
election.
Chief Constable Parker:
That is right. We are working on what we think is a reality.
Q22 Mr Streeter: I am
sure that is right. I just wanted to clarify that for the record.
I am interested in this issue of mergers. I understand there is
a possibility that you might voluntarily merge with Hertfordshire
Police Authority. My geography is not very strong. Do you join
them?
Chief Constable Parker:
Yes, we do.
Q23 Mr Streeter: I am
sorry about that. I mention this because I got this totally wrong
last time round—I was dead against it when Devon and Cornwall
were being told to merge with Somerset, for example—and
I think the savings can be quite dramatic. It is probably something
that faces all non-metropolitan authorities these days. Has anyone
put any numbers on this in terms of hard cash? If you were to
merge, what might you be able to save?
Chief Constable Parker:
We have certainly put the numbers on it. There are a number of
things I would like to say, and I would like to caveat any of
my remarks by saying that what might work for Bedfordshire and
Hertfordshire is not necessarily replicable across the country.
It works for Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire because we are geographically
close; there are some civic ties, some military ties; there is
a road network; there is crossover of intelligence and operational
needs; and most important of all, there is a willingness to make
it happen. Since 2006 the Chief Constable of Hertfordshire and
myself have been working with our authorities on a collaboration
programme. We have collaborated to the extent that we have joint
units of more than 500 police officers and staff and that has
saved us £2.2 million year-on-year. Our estimates—in
fact they are more than estimates because we have worked very
hard on the business case—are—first of all, the bad
news—that it will cost us £20 million to make the merger
happen, but within three years we would be gaining savings of
£14.6 million per annum. To put that against the picture
that we were working on in terms of budget gap, we estimate—this
is an estimate obviously—that by 2013-14 combined forces
would have a budget gap of over £23 million. Whatever we
can do to reduce those gaps individually—and we are working
individually to reduce the gaps—we have no way of completely
filling those gaps without something . . . . I was going to say
fairly drastic, but certainly something very different from what
we are doing at present.
Q24 Bob Russell: Before
I go on to Mr Godwin, of course there is a world of difference
between voluntary merger between two counties, as you rightly
observe, with a long tradition of communities of interest, and
the then government's proposal two or three years ago—an
absolutely barking idea—of putting Bedfordshire with Essex,
between which there is little, if any, community of interest.
Would you agree that Bedfordshire and Essex did not sit comfortably
side by side?
Chief Constable Parker:
It was not a combination that I would have chosen. Getting back
to Mr Salter's point earlier, at that time I was saying that my
ideal world would have been Thames Valley, Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire,
because, again, we already have collaborative agreements with
Thames Valley. That is the issue in terms of mergers, that it
is very difficult to get the right combination of forces and authorities
together.
Q25 Bob Russell: Essex
is delighted that it has been left alone, and I will move on to
Mr Godwin. You say you have managed to target efficiency savings
from support services rather than frontline services. Realistically,
how easy will it be to continue to meet further efficiency savings
targets in this way?
Deputy Commissioner Godwin:
It is going to be very challenging. As I answered to the Chairman's
question at the beginning, we still have £110 million to
find in 2011-12 in terms of our projections, but the reality is
we have to do things significantly differently. The way we recruit
has to change. One of the things we are looking at is recruiting
directly from Special Constables, who will effectively have completed
their training up to week 32. If we were to do that, it would
free up somewhere in the region of £40 million. There are
a number of issues we need to deal with to achieve that. Buildings
at the moment are at about 22% occupancy. We have a lot of office
space. We have 10,000 police staff in offices who predominantly
work Monday to Friday 9.00 to 5.00. We are a 24/7 city. Can we
change that? What is the net cost in that in increasing working
time and reducing our estate? We need to reduce our fleet. How
can we go around reducing the fleet? It is going to be a challenge.
We have the Lean process that we are going through, a service
improvement programme where we are trying to drive those costs
out.
Q26 Bob Russell: If you
continue to do that, do you think the public desire for high level,
visible policing can be met with fewer officers?
Deputy Commissioner Godwin:
At the moment we do not intend to go down the route of fewer officers.
Our intention at the moment is to maximise the productivity that
we get. One of the things we have in London, for example, which
is piloting for the national picture, is things like virtual courts,
first appearance courts, which means that a person from charge
to first appearance will now take two hours, straight from a police
station. That is running in Westminster and 15 of our charging
centres. We have things like integrated prosecution teams, whereby
we do not do criminal justice, the CPS do the criminal justice
post charge, and that saves us £15 million. All the stuff
that we are doing at the moment is to reduce that on-cost, that
bureaucracy cost, as much as we can, to maximise on police officers.
But of course there will be a finite limit that you go to and
then you will be looking into what you will have to cut in frontline
services. If we do have to cut frontline services we will be very
transparent in explaining what they are and why.
Q27 Bob Russell: Mrs Parker,
when do you think there may be a transparency in cutting services
of police numbers in Bedfordshire?
Chief Constable Parker:
Again it depends when we finalise the budget. Like Tim, we would
want to do all we can to protect frontline services. I mentioned
earlier the 30 officers. That is our worst-case scenario, and
I really would not want to have to move to that, but that is the
reality. We are going through a similar process of process re-engineering.
The Quest Programme which potentially will throw up £5 million
worth of efficiencies and a lot of that is time which we can reinvest
in the visible frontline policing.
Q28 Martin Salter: Mrs
Parker, to come back to the merger issue, as I remember the case
put forward for the merger of Thames Valley and Bedfordshire was
shared services, shared arrangements around policing the M1 and
overseeing an economy of scale. Do you think the decision not
to go ahead with the proposed mergers will have to be revisited
in the longer term, given the parlous state of public finances
and the need to find those economies of scale wherever we can
if we are to avoid cuts in frontline services and numbers of officers?
Chief Constable Parker:
It is both the ACPO position as well as my personal position that
mergers are the right way forward. The tricky bit, as I said earlier,
is which forces you put together and how you do it. Also, as I
pointed out to an earlier question, there are some real challenges,
including the costs. Just putting two relatively small forces
together, £20 million. That is the sort of bullet that has
to be bitten, but when you look at economies of scale it has to
be the best use of public money, so it needs that longer-term
investment and willingness ultimately to save the public purse.
I should however also make one point that I had not made earlier,
that of course it also needs political support because chief constables
are only one part of this and all my comments earlier would have
to be again caveated with the fact that this is not yet something
as far as Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire are concerned that has
been agreed by the police authorities. If there is not political
support then it will not happen. It s not just about getting the
Police Service support, it is obviously political support as well.
Q29 Martin Salter: Mr
Godwin, could I move on to the ACPO position. It is summarised
as: "Ways in which forces could seek to minimise the impact
of reduced funding" and there is a whole list of suggestions:
voluntary mergers, procurement opportunities, collaboration in
shared services, et cetera. I have you quoted as saying, "We
need to be clear with partners what will not be delivered if funding
is withdrawn." Can you clarify that, because it seems to
me that you are telling us that you are doing whatever you can
to avoid an impact on frontline services, but there is also a
statement on record that if £x is withdrawn, therefore
£x would be sliced off the numbers of officers. There
seems to be a bit of a disconnect there.
Deputy Commissioner Godwin:
I do not see it as a disconnect. I see that at the moment our
intention is to reduce: through all those routes, procurement,
supplies, services, et cetera to drive through the budget reductions
and the cost reductions that we have within the overall budget.
The London Camera Safety Partnership, for example, normally funded
with a direct grant to Transport for London that then comes to
us, funding for that has been cut from £6 million to £3
million. In terms of the priorities, in terms of neighbourhood
policing or wherever, that £3 million we would not invest
by taking it out of somewhere else and adding to our budget deficit,
so we say, "We will provide £3 million worth of Camera
Safety Partnerships." Our commercial vehicle unit is another
one at the moment. But these are small matters that were direct
funded from partners and all the rest of it, and we have said
we cannot sustain it within our overall budget and we are coming
up front and answering that. One of the others that I think needs
looking at is the Proceeds of Crime Act. The amount of money that
is collected under the Act could pay for more infrastructure and
I think it should, but there are issues there in term of how we
negotiate that with the Home Office, the MOJ, et cetera. That
is where it is, but we still have to find £110 million in
2011-12, we still have to find money for 2012-13, and if that
means that we cannot take it out of it—and as Mr Russell
was saying it is going to be a challenge—then we do have
to say, "These are the options that we have in terms of cutting
it." When Denis O'Connor and I did the National Police Reassurance
Programme that led to neighbourhood policing, and the investment
from government and local government for neighbourhood policing,
that was at the point where below an optimum level we would have
difficulty to sustain it, so we want to have that transparent
debate as we go forward with partners.
Q30 Patrick Mercer: Chief
Constable, what is your opinion of the Government's council tax
capping policy and the current application of the police funding
formula?
Chief Constable Parker:
It is difficult to comment on the capping policy because we never
quite know what it is until it has happened. We know there is
a capping policy but each year we try to guess where the line
is going to be drawn. As my authority was capped two years ago,
I have some experience of it. We worked very hard to get a very
good public mandate for what the authority wanted to do in terms
of council tax. Talking to the minister, demonstrating our particular
difficulties as far as the funding formula and our position as
far as overall council tax was concerned, I am afraid fell on
deaf ears. Given that at the time I was desperately trying to
pull up performance as well, it was rather disappointing. Coming
back to my first point, the issue is that we do not know what
it is, we try to guess, and then what appear to be some quite
odd anomalies come out of it. For example, I understand that Greater
Manchester Police have a higher council tax increase than Surrey
and Derbyshire, but the GMP were not capped.
Q31 Patrick Mercer: It
is something I have to say that exercises the minds in Nottinghamshire.
I am a Nottinghamshire Member of Parliament. The policing funding
formula is something that I find extremely difficult to understand.
Chief Constable Parker:
Yes. I think everybody finds the policing funding formula very
difficult to understand.
Q32 Patrick Mercer: I
am not alone.
Chief Constable Parker:
No, not at all. We probably all understand why there are such
things as floors and ceilings. The suggestion from Sir Ronnie
Flanagan's report was that whilst Bedfordshire would be very much
a gainer if floors and ceilings were removed, unfortunately it
would have huge consequences across the country, so that is not
a particular answer. There is some work going on on the funding
formula to make it more fit for purpose in this day and age, but
it is a complex business and you are never going to find something
that is going to suit all areas, it is just finding a way of appropriately
divvying up the cake.
Q33 Patrick Mercer: Because
of the size of your force and the split urban/rural nature of
the force, do you consider yourself to be particularly squeezed
on these issues?
Chief Constable Parker:
Yes, I do because within my policing area I have a proportionately
large rural area where, quite rightly, the rural people are saying
they do not get the policing they feel they deserve and I would
want to give them given that I have Luton, which in performance
terms is compared to a number of London boroughs, and Bedford,
which is also a very diverse town but has a different diversity
from Luton. Yes, we are squeezed from both ends.
Q34 Mr Winnick: I wanted
to ask you particularly, Deputy Commissioner Godwin, about the
DNA database. The point that has been made very much so today
is that the police are keeping a record on the National Police
Computer of people who have been arrested but not necessarily
charged or convicted. What is your response to that?
Deputy Commissioner Godwin:
It comes within the Criminal Justice Act in the sense that a person
lawfully detained can have their DNA and fingerprints taken. Obviously
there is a big debate about where the line is drawn in terms of
security meets civil liberty and privacy. I know that there is
movement from Government at the moment to bring forward the maximum
that DNA can be retained on a database to six years. My view is
that we comply with the law and Parliament sets down where those
lines are drawn.
Q35 Mr Winnick: As far
as the Metropolitan Police area is concerned, is it the practice
that anyone who is simply arrested is automatically put on the
database?
Deputy Commissioner Godwin:
That is true within law at this time, that if a person is lawfully
detained the DNA and fingerprints are taken at that point and
then can be retained. As I say, it is a matter that is coming
to Parliament. Parliament sets the law and we comply with the
law.
Q36 Mr Winnick: So a person
has their details on the database arising from being arrested
and the fact that the arrest does not lead to a prosecution makes
no difference at all, that person's information will remain on
the database.
Deputy Commissioner Godwin:
At the moment, and that is the law. There are circumstances where
people can apply to have it removed but, again, that is a matter
that is coming to Parliament and obviously the police will comply
with the law.
Q37 Mr Winnick: Can you
give any sort of indication of how many people in the Metropolitan
Police area have their information on the database?
Deputy Commissioner Godwin:
I cannot answer that here and now. I have come prepared for the
budget debate and not for the DNA database debate. I am sure we
can provide that information.
Q38 Chairman: Could you
write to us with that information because the Committee knows
there are 750,000 innocent people's details on the database and
it would be helpful if you could tell us how many relate to the
Metropolitan Police area.
Deputy Commissioner Godwin:
I will endeavour to get that information.
Q39 Ms Buck: Supplementary
to that, a few years ago the Committee did a report on young black
people in the criminal justice system and looked at the issue
of disproportionality at every level from stop right through to
prosecution. Given the fact that the Equality and Human Rights
Commission has today expressed a concern about the disproportionality
of the DNA records of black Londoners and others being on the
system, in that letter could you give us a breakdown on ethnicity
grounds as well so that we can bear that in mind if we do a further
inquiry.
Deputy Commissioner Godwin:
We can certainly do that.
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