Examination of Witness (Question Numbers
70-79)
RT HON
DAVID HANSON
MP
24 NOVEMBER 2009
Q70 Chairman: Minister,
thank you very much for coming to give evidence to us today. Welcome
back. This is a very short inquiry into Police Service numbers.
You heard what I said to the previous witnesses: we were concerned
at claims by the police that they are going to have to cut officers
from their payroll against the Government's assertion that it
has given more money than any other government before to the Police
Service. We have written to all the police authorities asking
them for their figures. Sir Hugh Orde, the new President of ACPO,
has said that police budgets will have to be cut by 20% because
of the recession. Do you agree with his analysis?
Mr Hanson: I can
only say what I can look at in relation to our funding proposals
for the next 12 months and we have currently planned, which the
police forces are aware of, around about a 2.7% increase next
year, 2011, which has been committed for the past two years as
part of our three year Comprehensive Spending Review. In each
of those years we have seen a rise of around 2.5% to police forces
and next year we will have 2.7% at a time when inflation will
likely be considerably lower than that. With due respect to Sir
Hugh, and I understand his concerns on this, I do not recognise
in the next 12 months the arguments for a 20% cut in funding.
Q71 Chairman: We have
heard from Chief Constables today. We have heard from the Chief
Constable of Bedfordshire who says that she is going to have to
cut 30 police officers from her payroll. This is a very large
number for a small force like Bedfordshire. We have now heard
from others that they are being forced into a form of privatisation
because of the limitations on their budget. Is this acceptable
from a Government that is supposed to have given more resources
to the police than any other government in the past?
Mr Hanson: All
I can say, Chairman, is the latter part of your sentence is indeed
true, we have seen a 60% increase in police resources of some
£3.7 billion.
Q72 Chairman: So where
has all this money gone?
Mr Hanson: The
money has gone on providing 142,151 police officers last year,
which was an increase of nearly 1,000 over the previous year,
and it has gone on providing 16,000 police community support officers
that were not in place six years ago. It has gone on an overall
increase in the number of police officers which has seen a result
in falling crime of around 36% over the same period. I think it
has had a cause and effect. We have got a significant increase
in resources and next year for 2010-11 the figure will be likely
to be around £259 million extra to policing, around 2.7%
extra.
Q73 Chairman: Are they
making this up?
Mr Hanson: There
are a range of pressures on police forces, and I accept and understand
those challenges, but in real terms we face, as do all public
sector employees, the need to look at how we better use our resources,
how we focus those in a much more productive way and how we take
some of the waste and inefficiencies out of the service. I can
only say in real terms what that rise has been and next year police
officers across England and Wales know what the rise is, have
known for two years, and will see a rise of around 2.5% minimum
to 2.7% average over the period of the next year.
Q74 Mr Streeter: Minister,
there is no doubt that extra money has gone in over the last five
years, and before that, and the number of police officers has
risen by about 4.8% but, in fact, the number of civilian staff
employed by police forces has risen by 15%. Do you know the reason
behind those trends and how do we account for that?
Mr Hanson: It is
a trend. If I look at the figures for, say, the last four years
we have gone from around 70,000 civilian support staff to 81,000
civilian support staff. That is because in part the chief constables
themselves have started to move some of the policing roles that
were undertaken by police officers to civilian support staff to
ensure that we maintain a presence on the frontline for police
officers doing what I think the Committee would want police officers
to do, which is to give reassurance, patrol the streets, detect
crime and tackle some of the issues of frontline crime rather
than some of the issues of backroom bureaucracy, which I think
has been a common charge against police forces over many years.
Q75 Mr Streeter: Just
on the Chairman's opening volley against you, is this basically
negotiations going on from police forces which happens every year
or is there something fresh going on? We know that most local
authorities in this country, for example, are expecting a cut
of between 15% and 20% over the next three years, police forces
also, so it cannot be a great surprise to you. Why are they bringing
it out in this very heavy way at the moment?
Mr Hanson: There
is a real challenge for all of us in the post-2011 funding scenario.
We have two big events between now and April 2011. One is the
General Election, which will deliver a government of some sort,
and the second is the next round of Comprehensive Spending Review.
I cannot yet predict what the CSR will be for 2011-14, but I think
everybody in this room will recognise that it will be more challenging
than the CSR of previous years. There is a debate around whether
we prioritise direct funding for police and how we undertake greater
efficiencies in what we do with the manpower and person power
of police forces, but also with procurement and delivery, of which
Southwest One is one good example. All I can say, and I am repeating
myself, is we have given a three year commitment over the past
two years and we have given a commitment for next year of rises
which in this CSR the police have been aware of and next year
will deliver around £259 million more than this year.
Q76 David Davies: I think
it is known that I am a serving Special Constable with the British
Transport Police.
Mr Hanson: A very
effective one too, if I may say so.
Chairman: Unpaid, I understand.
Q77 David Davies: I wonder
if you could clarify something for me. When the Government talk
about real term increases in police budgets, those do not include
the so-called efficiency savings, do they? Some people would say
that an efficiency saving is effectively a cut in funding. If
you are demanding efficiency savings of 1% or 2% but you say you
are increasing the budget by 2.5%, you are only giving an increase
in real terms of 0.5%, are you not?
Mr Hanson: We are
trying to ensure that the efficiency savings that are made, and
I will be making more announcements before—
Q78 David Davies: An efficiency
saving is a reduction in funding, is it not? You say, "I
demand 2% efficiency savings from you and I will assume you get
it so I will just take 2% off your budget".
Mr Hanson: These
rises, the 60% increase and the 2.7% rise next year, are real
rises. The efficiency savings that forces are making can be ploughed
back into securing other forms of funding that they want to do
in their own patches operationally to support deployment of other
officers or—
Q79 David Davies: So they
get to keep the efficiency savings?
Mr Hanson: They
are keeping efficiency savings. What we are looking to do is to
look at for the future, and I will be making announcements before
Christmas as part of our White Paper on this, how we can drive
forward the efficiency agenda.
David Davies: I have been
told otherwise. I still feel I am missing something here, but
I will get to the bottom of it one day.
Chairman: I am sure you
will. If anyone can, Mr Davies, you are the man to get to the
bottom of it.
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