Examination of Witnesses (Questions 330
- 339)
TUESDAY 10 NOVEMBER 2009
HIS EXCELLENCY
MR MAURICIO
RODRIGUEZ MUNERA
Q330 Chairman: Excellency, hola!
Good morning. Thank you very much for coming to give evidence
before us today; we are most grateful. We had hoped, your Excellency,
to visit your wonderful country; however, we have not been able
to do so because of various logistical problems. So we are most
grateful to you for coming here to give evidence to us today on
this very important subject. We are conducting an inquiry into
the cocaine trade; how cocaine gets into the United Kingdom; what
happens when it gets here; and what we can do to try and stop
it coming here. We have recently come back from a very interesting
visit to Holland where we went to the Port of Rotterdam and some
of the cocaine that is brought into the country from other countries
like Curaçao and Peru originated originally from Colombia.
Could you tell us about the Colombian Government's strategy for
trying to eradicate coca cultivation and cocaine production; and
do you think it is working?
HE Rodriguez: Good morning; thank
you very much for the invitation, Mr Chairman. I want to take
this opportunity to thank all the members of Parliament who have
been supportive with Colombia throughout the years in our fight
against the drug trade. As you well know, Colombia has suffered
for more than 40 years from this devastating drug production and
consumption; a situation that has killed thousands and thousands
of Colombians throughout the years and has created support to
the guerrillas and the paramilitaries that have fuelled the violence
in Colombia. It has also done a lot of damage to the economy,
to the environment and has distracted funds that should have been
used for social purposes—those monies have been spent in
fighting the drug trade.
Q331 Chairman: Do you think that
production has increased or decreased?
HE Rodriguez: To answer your question
specifically I have some recent data. As of a couple of days ago
the CIA, from the United States, the Crime and Narcotics Report
has "sustained that according to the most recent crop estimate
from the CNC Crime and Narcotics' Unit Report of CIA, potential
cocaine production in Colombia dropped 39% between 2007 and 2008",
so there has been a significant reduction in production of cocaine
in Columbia according to this report of the US Intelligence Agency,
CIA. Since 1999, in the past ten years, Columbia has seized more
than 1,433 tonnes of cocaine. There has also been a significant
decrease in cultivation in the country since the year 2000. There
is an estimate of the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime
that calculates that the reduction in cocaine crops has been of
50% in the last ten years.
Q332 Chairman: Thank you, Excellency,
those figures are extremely useful and I would be most grateful
if they could be sent to us so that we can include them in our
report. What effect is deforestation from coca cultivation having
on your country?
HE Rodriguez: The information
that we have from the Vice President's office in Colombia is that
2.2 million hectares of tropical forest have been logged, have
been cleared for the cultivation of coca. This is an area equivalent
to the size of Slovenia, just to give you an idea of the very
negative impact of coca cultivation for the environment, which
in Colombia is particularly terrible news because Colombia has
one of the best bio-diversities in the world. So to destroy those
tropical forests is really very, very negative not only for the
environment but for this specific bio-diversity which is unique
in the world.
Q333 Chairman: Do you think that
the aerial spraying of coca plantations has had an adverse effect
on other crops?
HE Rodriguez: No, we do not think
it has had a series impact. In fact there is a statement by the
Organisation of American States talking about glyphosate spraying
and it says: "Overall, the risks to sensitive wildlife and
human health from the use of glyphosate in the control of coca
(and poppy) production in Colombia are small to negligible."
Q334 Mrs Dean: Your Excellency, how
much more lucrative than other crops is coca cultivation to Colombian
farmers?
HE Rodriguez: That is a very good
question. In reality what happens is that cocaine cultivation
is just an alternative; it is not very lucrative for the peasant.
The peasant cultivates coca because the drug barons give them
the seeds, give them the herbicides, give them the fertilizers,
give them the tools necessary to cultivate the coca and will buy
their crop. But, given an alternative, if the government were
able to give some alternative for them to cultivate they would
prefer that alternative. So the real money is not made in the
cultivation of the coca; the real money is made in the trade from
then on, but the peasants do not really make a lot of money—it
is only for subsistence in their case. We have very good studies
proving that point; that the peasants if given an alternative—and
in fact we have done many alternative development programmes—they
will move into another crop. For them it is just a matter of subsistence.
Q335 Mrs Dean: So is the government
being successful in giving alternative crops to the farmers to
encourage them to grow other produce?
HE Rodriguez: Yes, that is another
part of our strategy to fight against drugs. In addition to the
eradication of coca crops—and these eradications have been
of 1.5 million hectares in the last ten years—we have programmes
for alternative development, and in these programmes Colombia
has invested more than $525 million; it has benefited 107,000
families in one specific programme called Forest Warden Families.
We ask these families to protect the forests and they will get
paid for the protection of the forests, to avoid the forests being
cut down to cultivate cocaine. In some other productive projects
we have invested $46 million that has benefited 26,000 families
and this has allowed Colombia to recover 70,000 hectares that
were previously used for coca cultivation.
Q336 Mrs Dean: What proportion of
Colombians depend on income from the cocaine trade? Not just the
farming but the development of the cocaine as well?
HE Rodriguez: The percentage,
does that represent the total income of the Colombian economy?
Q337 Mrs Dean: The numbers of people
involved.
HE Rodriguez: People involved.
We have estimates according to the United Nations Office on Drug
and Crime that 236,000 Colombians are involved in the production
and trade in our country.
Q338 Chairman: What is your population?
HE Rodriguez: 44 million people
live in Colombia; so this is a very small portion of Colombians
involved in cocaine production and trade.
Q339 Mr Streeter: I want to probe
that point a little further, your Excellency, in a second, but
can I ask you when giving statistics about your country you are
quoting information from America and from the United Nations.
Does your own government not produce statistics, or are you quoting
outsiders just to say that it must be true because we are not
saying it ourselves?
HE Rodriguez: I understand your
question. I have a combination of sources. In some case I have
United Nations' reports and in other cases I have government statistics,
but of course we have all sorts of sources for this information,
just to make sure that we have a diversified source of information
that increases the credibility of that information.
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