Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360
- 375)
TUESDAY 10 NOVEMBER 2009
HIS EXCELLENCY
MR MAURICIO
RODRIGUEZ MUNERA
Q360 Mr Winnick: But they have arrested
drug traffickers, have they not?
HE Rodriguez: I have their statement
here. SOCA has no judicial or policing faculties in Colombia.
Q361 Mr Winnick: So as far as UK
and Colombian law enforcement agencies are concerned, they work
together in certain circumstances.
HE Rodriguez: Yes, we have the
support of the intelligence; the UK Government is providing intelligence,
specifically to Colombian officials so that they can fight against
narco traffic.
Q362 Mr Winnick: So when it comes
to the sovereignty of your country, just the same as in Britain
that outside police forces would have no obvious powers to arrest
then the same applies in Colombia?
HE Rodriguez: Yes, sir, absolutely
the same. But we do have an extradition treaty and in fact there
has been one Colombian extradited to the UK under this extradition
treaty; so we have this cooperation, but within Colombia the UK
authorities have no judicial or policing faculties within Colombia.
Q363 Mr Winnick: But clearly the
intelligence provided from other countries, including Britain,
comes in very useful.
HE Rodriguez: Very useful and
we appreciate it and we would like to have more of that kind of
support because the UK intelligence is very well appreciate; it
is one of the best in the world and it has been effective in the
past, and we hope to have more of this kind of cooperation.
Q364 Chairman: On that, what we saw
in Amsterdam Airport, in the Schiphol Airport, was the arrival
of mules who had swallowed pellets containing cocaine. One way
in which we can try and resolve this matter is if certain countries
had the right, in cooperation with your government, to scan people
before they actually left their country of origin. Would you consider
that; that this equipment is given to you so that you can do the
scanning in Colombia, or indeed in Peru because the people we
saw had come from Peru and Curaçao, so that the problem
is dealt with in the country where it is created. Would that be
a consideration?
HE Rodriguez: Absolutely. Any
measure geared to reduce the trade in production and consumption
of drugs is welcome and in fact in Colombia there is scanning
actually. If you leave the country there is some mechanical equipment
checking that and there is even a physical check to try to identify
and many of those mules are detained before they are able to travel.
But if something else can be done I am sure that the Colombian
Government will be open to any suggestions in that sense.
Q365 Chairman: Would you be able
to give us the statistics of how many people are detained before
boarding because we have only seen it from the other point of
view, after people arrive in Europe and they are scanned.
HE Rodriguez: Yes.
Q366 Mr Streeter: A slightly different
point, your Excellency. Based on what you have told us about the
rain forests being cut down, one of the problems with cocaine
in this country is that it is seen as a recreational drug taken
by lots of people who are celebrities and in the media—left
wing luvvies as we call them over here. Do you think it is an
important message that we could send because these people, these
celebrities are also of course very concerned about the rain forests?
Is it legitimate for us to say over here and as part of our report
that actually people who take cocaine are helping to damage the
rain forests in South America and that one way they could help
is to stop taking this awful drug? Do you agree with that, sir?
HE Rodriguez: Absolutely and let
me give you some statistics. Each gram of cocaine destroys four
square metres of tropical forests.
Q367 Chairman: A very interesting
statistic.
HE Rodriguez: We have a programme
set up with Minister Campbell, a shared responsibilities programme
whereby we are trying to educate consumers all over the world
in this connection between drug consumption and the destruction
of our environment. Our Environment Minister was here two weeks
ago and we met with Minister Campbell. We handed him some material
for training—virtual lessons—to be distributed in
the schools in the UK. And our Minister made an interview with
Pablo, the dog that acts—
Chairman: I am told that Mr Campbell
appreciated that training that you gave him. Ann Cryer has the
final question.
Mrs Cryer: Your Excellency, I am sorry
I was late; I had to go to another meeting and I just could not
get away. The final question: could you talk us through the relationship
between Colombia and the United States as far as the movement
of cocaine is concerned. And is there anything in that cooperation
that could perhaps apply to Colombia and this country?
Q368 Chairman: If you could tell
us statistics. We have statistics about Colombian cocaine coming
to Europe but we have not had statistics of cocaine going from
Colombia to the United States. Do we have any statistics on this?
HE Rodriguez: Yes. 80% of the
cocaine consumed in that country comes from Colombia. The US has
supplied Colombia in the last eight years with $5.5 billion dollars
of aid to fight against the drug trade in Colombia. It is a huge
amount of money. Colombia has invested $10 billion in fighting
drug production; so for every dollar we received from the US we
have invested $2.
Q369 Chairman: Just on that point
what is the value of the cocaine that enters the United States?
Do we know? You have given us the value of how much they have
given you, but do you know the value of the cocaine—what
that 80% represents in terms of billions of dollars?
HE Rodriguez: I have seen some
estimates of the global—I do not have the exact number for
the US—and the global trade is close to $400 billion—global.
Q370 Chairman: From Colombia?
HE Rodriguez: No. This is a very
important point and I want to emphasise this—it is very
important to understand this. Those numbers are calculated on
the basis of the price of a gram of cocaine in the streets of
New York or London or Berlin. But Colombia does not give that
money; that does not enter Colombia. Colombia will only receive
a very small fraction of that money. The real money is that made
in the production of cocaine; the real money is made in the trafficking—not
from the Colombian jungles to the coast or whatever, but within
Europe or the US, that is where the big amount of money is made.
Q371 Chairman: The final answer to
Mrs Cryer? What is the cooperation like between the USA and Colombia?
HE Rodriguez: So we have plenty
of money—$5 billion in eight years, that is a huge amount
of money—and that money is spent in eradication, in alternative
development programmes, which is very important; also in social
investments, money invested in these marginal communities that
lack a lot of needs in terms of infrastructure, health and education.
We have received 5.6 billion in aid from the year 2002 to the
year 2008. 4.4 billion has been invested into military programmes
fighting drug traffic, and 1.3 billion in non-military aid, like
alternative development and also to support displaced persons.
Cocaine production and trade displaces a lot of Colombians—they
need to escape from these areas because their safety is in jeopardy.
The Colombian Government would like to see the UK supporting Colombia
in the fight against production of cocaine as much as the US in
proportion to the size of the impact that it has in the UK.
Q372 Mrs Cryer: Those are all very
good points you have made, about transferring people from production
of cocaine to other things and people moving to other areas, but
what are you doing and what could you do for the United Kingdom
in the same way about stopping shipments going from Colombia to
the United States or to the UK? Stopping mules boarding planes
with pellets inside them. What is being done about that?
HE Rodriguez: We have to increase
intervention, eradication, prosecution; we need to have more and
more resources to fight against that.
Q373 Chairman: Indeed. I think Mrs
Cryer missed the earlier part of your evidence where you set out
very clearly what you thought we should do. Your Excellency, thank
you very much. Muchas gracias for coming in today; we are very
grateful.
HE Rodriguez: 15 seconds, last
message?
Q374 Chairman: 30 seconds.
HE Rodriguez: One last message.
Free trade agreement; it is very important. If I could ask something
special in addition to these funds and these programmes—free
trade agreement. The free trade agreement of the European Union
with Colombia will give the Colombian economy an opportunity to
generate employment, an opportunity to produce goods and services
that can be exported to these markets. That is why I take this
opportunity to ask for your support in this free trade agreement.
Q375 Chairman: Very important. And
if there is anything that you wish to add further to what you
have said, especially those statistics, please feel free to write
to me.
HE Rodriguez: Thank you for your
invitation and thank you for your support.
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