Examination of Witnesses (Questions 380
- 399)
TUESDAY 1 DECEMBER 2009
ASSISTANT CHIEF
CONSTABLE MICK
MATTHEWS AND
MR CHRIS
PEARSON
Q380 Bob Russell: Mr Matthews, the
Home Office and ACPO in their written submission state that all
forces have seen a substantial rise in the use of crack cocaine,
which is in contradiction to the British Crime Survey figures.
By how much do forces estimate crack use has risen and is there
any variation between the forces—urban, rural and so on?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
First of all, the reference to increases was based on seizures
and evidence that was arriving on the doorsteps of UK forces over
the last ten years. ACPO would agree that certainly in the last
year, in line with the British Crime Survey, the picture has stabilised
with regard to crack cocaine. I think what is important to recognise
with the BCS is that it tends to target households and not necessarily
problematic drug users, so the true picture of actual use and
possession of crack cocaine could still be hidden.
Q381 Bob Russell: What about urban
and rural?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
There are no real differences between urban and rural, if I am
honest with you. I think it is available wherever you go in the
country. We are finding seizures in a range of locations now from
temporary caravan sites to housing estates to nightclubs, so it
is available.
Q382 Gwyn Prosser: Recently I visited
Maidstone to see the effects of the high visibility crackdown
on cocaine, shall I call it. From my point of view, I was very
impressed with the results. To what extent do you think these
sorts of tactics should be rolled out nationwide and what are
the early results? Who is analysing the results of these high
visibility, in your face, operations?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
First, I will be honest and say that they are rolled out nationwide.
A vast number of forces now have the capability to use the kind
of equipment that you probably saw in use like Ion Track. It is
seen by forces as a crime-reduction tool; it is effective in that
we regularly seize powders as a result of the use of the tool.
As such, it is day-to-day business really rather than something
that needs to be rolled out.
Q383 Gwyn Prosser: Are these tools
primarily designed to detect and enforce law or to disrupt the
actual dealers and the users in a particular city centre?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
I think that is at the heart of the matter. Obviously, they have
a variety of uses; for instance, they can pick up explosive scents.
At the heart of this is how much it deters somebody. A recent
survey by the Kent Police showed that over 70% of people who were
going to nightclubs would be deterred from trying to carry a drug
into the nightclub if they saw the police deploying that sort
of equipment. Equally, over 60% felt that it would be safer to
go into that nightclub having seen the police deployed in that
fashion. I think firstly it does act as a good deterrent; secondly,
it gives some kind of reassurance to law-abiding people.
Q384 Gwyn Prosser: On the night we
were out, of up to 300 Ion tests there were ten arrests. Are you
in a position to say whether that would be typical of the proportion
of detections?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
That would be round about typical, yes. Generally speaking, when
you deploy the machine, the result is around about 5%.
Q385 Gwyn Prosser: I was also impressed
by how affable and accepting these young people were, although
lots of them had had a bit of alcohol to drink. They accepted
the idea of queuing up, being detected and going in, but that
was Maidstone. How would that sort of policing go down in central
London?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
If I give an example first of all. Two weeks ago I was in Gloucestershire,
my own county force, where a knife arch was deployed with a queue
of people going through it. The one person who started to kick
up in the line and did not want to go through it had a knife on
him. One feels straight away that kind of system is working. I
asked people in that queue, "How do you feel about being
searched by the police on a night out going into a nightclub?"
and every single person said to me, "It makes me feel safer
to be here. It makes me feel safer to go out". I do not know
whether the Metropolitan Police has the same view. That is my
view of this in general.
Mr Pearson: I have nothing further
to add. I think that is pretty much a reflection of the position
in London.
Chairman: The Committee will be visiting
one of the nightclubs in central London before Christmas. Your
advice as to which one to go to would be very helpful. Obviously
we like to see everything in action. It is not our Christmas party
but part of the inquiry!
Q386 David Davies: I think this is
excellent work that is gong on round the nightclubs, but what
about people driving back afterwards? We are very strict, and
rightly so, about alcohol. What about people who may have sniffed
cocaine and be driving a car? What can we do to detect that and
then prosecute them?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
I am very glad that you asked the question because I would not
want the committee to believe that the kind of technical equipment
you saw deployed on your visit was the only operating location
we would use it. For example, it is commonplace up and down the
country now for forces to deploy the technology known as ANPR
(automatic number plate reading). When that flags up a vehicle
that is seen to be worth stopping, very often now we will deploy
the hand-held device in the vehicle to satisfy ourselves that
the occupants of that vehicle have not been in contact with controlled
drugs. Again, we do make arrests as a result of that type of deployment.
Q387 Mr Streeter: The Committee learnt
some weeks ago that for every gram of cocaine produced in this
country, either an acre or a hectare of rain forest is cut down
to produce the darned stuff in Colombia or elsewhere. Given the
"luvvy" nature of some of the people taking this drug,
do you think that there is any mileage in a campaign by the police,
or whoever ultimately might be responsible, to promote that fact?
It does not quite fit in with the desire to save the planet and
being high up in the media world, and yet you are being instrumental
in cutting down the rain forests. Do you think about these sorts
of things or is it not your job?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
I suppose our job is around public safety and ensuring that people
who are breaking the law are brought to justice. Nonetheless,
I think it is equally suitable for the Police Service to point
out when the use of drugs is creating havoc around the world.
I found it interesting that the Vice-President of Colombia spoke
at the ACPO Drugs Conference the year before last in Belfast and
there were police officers in the room who were shocked and horrified
to see the extent of what was happening. I would believe that
getting that message out properly, whether it is to be done by
the police or others, to the general public would be a positive
thing.
Mr Pearson: If I could add to
that, I think the police would certainly support such a campaign.
It was the shared responsibility campaign that the Vice-President
of Colombia was doing his presentation on. If we could support
that and perhaps get other agencies involved, such as Greenpeace,
they could promote the message properly.
Q388 Tom Brake: May I ask Mr Matthews
a few more questions about the Ion Track devices? Do you know
what percentage of forces uses these?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
There is a range of devices available to the service. ACPO's current
records show that 26 forces have the capability at the moment
out of the 43 for which we are responsible.
Q389 Tom Brake: Have you, in fact,
recommended or would you recommend that all forces deploy this
technology or similar technology?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
Yes, that would be an ACPO position. Of course there is a cost
that comes with the technology. The average machine ranges between
£25,000 to £30,000 to purchase and one machine in a
large force would not be sufficient. For example, I think Kent
have over a dozen of these machines. There is a capital cost involved
and investment to be made by forces.
Q390 Tom Brake: I am aware that they
can be programmed to detect a number of drugs. Does that mean
a number of drugs at the same time and does that cover the range
of all drugs or most of the drugs that are in use currently?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
Whilst I am not an expert on the device, my understanding is that
depending on which device you are using, they do have the capability
of detecting more than one drug at one time.
Q391 Tom Brake: As far as you are
aware, that includes all the key drugs that are currently in use?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
I think it works by detecting anything that gives off a vapour
that can be sensed by the machine.
Q392 Ms Buck: Crack houses: how effective
do you think the antisocial behaviour legislation has been in
enabling faster and more effective closure of crack houses, which
are an absolute blight to communities, as I know very well from
experience?
Mr Pearson: It has been effective.
I think it has also been very popular. In London where a crack
house has been closed down, the neighbours have actually come
out and applauded the police while they have been boarding up
the premises. We have not seen any displacement from that onto
the streets either, which was a fear.
Q393 Ms Buck: They are quite separate
markets, are they not?
Mr Pearson: Yes. A crack house
generally is somewhere people convene to smoke crack and not just
to buy it. They are unlikely to want to hang around on street
corners for any time smoking crack.
Q394 Ms Buck: What are you able to
tell us in terms of the trend to confirm what you are saying?
How many crack house closures were happening a year before the
introduction of the 2004 Act and how many do you think you are
now able to close? If you do not have those figures, perhaps you
would be prepared to write to the Committee with them?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
I can certainly give you figures in terms of the closure of crack
houses. You did ask about how effective the legislation was. We
are seeing some problems in terms of how the courts are interpreting
the use of the legislation. The legislation refers to being able
to require an immediate closure and then within 48 hours requiring
the courts to endorse that with a closure order. However, a number
of respondents, as they are known, because they are not defendants
under this legislation, are going to court and stating that they
have not had sufficient time within 48 hours to consult with their
legal advisers, and courts are adjourning sometimes for two, three
or four weeks at a time. This inevitably leads not only to the
movement of drugs where the individuals concerned can get back
to the location and move drugs around, et cetera, but continues
to cause a problem within communities, especially when the communities
have been witnesses and have brought the matter to the attention
of the police. There is an issue there about which ACPO are concerned.
In terms of closures, we have the details up until September 2008,
since the legislation was brought in, and a total of 1,757 crack
house closure orders were issued during that period of time.
Q395 Mrs Dean: Can you explain in
simple terms the "street level up approach"?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
Yes. In simple terms, it is an ACPO-led initiative but it is a
partnership initiative including our colleagues from SOCA. The
idea was that we start to link from the street upwards the chain,
the connection, of drug supply, so seizing drug users, getting
from that information who the drug supplier was locally and from
the drug supplier who the importer was. It has been quite a successful
way of doing business because it has opened up channels for exchanging
of information; it is making sure we are all harmonised in terms
of targeting individuals; and it is producing increased intelligence,
although it is difficult at the moment to determine exactly what
that increase looks like and work is going on to try to put a
figure on that. In a nutshell, that is what it is.
Q396 Mrs Dean: Can you give us an
example of where it is different from what has been used in the
past? Could you explain whether it is really a new approach or
that is just how it has been done but a new name for it?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
The subtle different from the past is that it is a joined-up approach.
In the past probably the Police Service has been as guilty as
any of the other law-enforcement agencies of operating in isolation.
Clearly we now recognise the huge value of operating with our
colleagues from SOCA, UKBA and others to have a joined-up approach.
Indeed, only in the last two years we created the UK Drugs Nexus
Group and that is a multi-agency strategy group designed just
to focus on how together we can target the drug supply from importation
all the way through to user.
Q397 Tom Brake: Just on that point,
I think the Committee would probably be surprised that the police
have apparently recently decided the best way to deal with this
crime is to talk to the users and then go further up the chain.
Probably most Committee Members would have thought that was what
you were doing already. It is a fairly straightforward approach.
I wonder whether there are perhaps any other examples that you
can think of where similarly the police need to be adopting a
joined-up approach in relation perhaps to tackling other crime
because it seems so straightforward that that is what you should
be doing.
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
I think we have always sought to have a joined-up approach but
the reality is that this is about being able to use the assets
of other agencies as well as our own frankly to get a bigger bang
for our bucks in terms of the investment we are making in this.
We operate on an intelligence-led approach at the end of the day.
We seek not to react to crime; we try to be proactive around it.
In terms of using this type of approach for other crimes, we do
that. It is as simple as that. Organised crime groups are operating
up and down the UK now. In the last 18 months we have collaborated
with UKBA, with SOCA in particular, with Inland Revenue and we
have mapped who those crime groups are, where they are and who
the individuals involved in them are. We are jointly targeting
them and, if you like, almost carving up the ownership for that.
You could argue that we should have been doing this years ago.
Frankly, we did not always have the capability or the technology
to do it and technology has taken us a long way forward.
Q398 Patrick Mercer: Assistant Chief
Constable Matthews, may we take this a little further? Since the
introduction of the Proceeds of Crime Act in 2002, how many cocaine-related
assets have been seized by yourselves?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
I was warned that this question could come up. The ACPO position
is that it is not measured purely in terms of cocaine. Basically,
under the Proceeds of Crime Act we will target organised criminals.
Your average organised crime group is into just about anything
from robbery, thieving, counterfeit, prostitution to drug supply.
Therefore, when you capture one and you go for a seizure, you
take what you can get through the court process. It is very difficult
to determine from there what would be down to Class A supply alone.
Q399 Patrick Mercer: I do understand
that and I accept that entirely. Is it true that the Treasury
gets half of all the assets seized?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
Yes, that is true. 50% goes to the Treasury but I am advised that
is intended to be reinvested by the Treasury back into supporting
policing activity in the long-term.
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