Examination of Witnesses (Questions 400
- 412)
TUESDAY 1 DECEMBER 2009
ASSISTANT CHIEF
CONSTABLE MICK
MATTHEWS AND
MR CHRIS
PEARSON
Q400 Patrick Mercer: All right, but
how can it be true that you are reinvesting the proceeds to benefit
communities?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
The other 50% is divided up between the Police Service, the courts,
the CPS and, certainly from the ACPO perspective, we do reinvest
anything we get back into putting more policing back on the streets
or more targeted operations around drugs. I cannot speak for the
Treasury side.
Q401 Patrick Mercer: But if less
than half has been retained by the local community, how does that
statement stack up?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
Personally, if you are asking my honest opinion, we would like
to get 100% back.
Q402 Chairman: I wonder whether we
are actually winning the war on drugs. As you know, there are
figures that show there is an estimated 35 to 40 tonnes a year
entering the United Kingdom with a street value of approximately
£1.75 billion to £1.8 billion. This is a terrible figure,
is it not?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
It is a shocking figure, Chairman. Another figure that I think
is equally relevant is that in the last 18 months police seizures
in the UK have shown that the vast majority have been less than
10% purity.
Q403 Chairman: Is that seizure in
terms of tonnage or value?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
I do not know the exact figures of tonnage or value. I do not
have those in front of me.
Q404 Chairman: I have figures for
what is going in which indicate to us that we are not winning
the war on drugs. We have SOCA, the police and all these other
agencies, the UK Border Agency, all giving evidence to us today,
but we are still the second highest user of cocaine in the whole
of Europe?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
Yes.
Q405 Chairman: That must be a cause
of concern for you?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
It is a cause of extreme concern. I can tell you that it is not
difficult to find it wherever you go on the streets.
Q406 Chairman: What has happened
to Mr Halliwell? He stood down as the drugs czar some time ago.
We are trying to find him. We would be grateful if you could help
us find him.
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
We can probably find a location for you.
Q407 Chairman: Were you disappointed
that Mr Halliwell was not succeeded by another drugs czar? We
had someone who co-ordinated all this policy appointed by the
Government, he then stepped own and now we have no-one co-ordinating.
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
What I would say to that is that it is always useful to have a
single point of contact. However, ACPO divides itself into a number
of committees, on one of which I sit, which is the ACPO Drugs
Committee, and part of our role is to co-ordinate UK policing
activity, which we do and do successfully.
Q408 Martin Salter: Mr Matthews,
can I go back to the Proceeds of Crime Act? It is very easy for
the police to say "Give us all the money", you are good
at that, but given that you are often pursuing the same group
of people time and time again who re-offend and re-offend, and
that we have a complete lack of resources for effective treatment
programmes, particularly in urban areas like London and Reading,
which I represent, is there not a powerful case for some of this
money from the Asset Recovery Agency to go into drug treatment
programmes so that we do not have quite so many addicts running
around committing acquisitive crime in the first place keeping
you all very busy?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
Most of those in drug treatment programmes are people who are
serious drug addicts, normally heroin and crack cocaine addicts,
and as such they cause us the majority of problems in terms of
crime in this country. Their habits are so bad that the volume
of money that they have to come by by dishonest means to pay for
their habits, £600 a night habits, clearly speaks for itself
in terms of the impact on the community, the harm that does and
the stretch in police resources that then comes from that. Personally,
and I am sure ACPO would agree with this, I would support anything
that would enhance the capability of assisting those individuals
to come off drugs. If that meant using some of these assets seized
to be diverted in that way, I would not have any objection.
Q409 Martin Salter: Surely there
are three elements to any effective drugs programme. There has
to be education, enforcement and treatment. Perhaps sometimes
we put the ball too much in your court and not enough emphasis
on treatment, which is actually going to reduce drug-related crime
more effectively than constantly putting resources into enforcement.
Is that so?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
I would say that one of the most successful schemes operating
at the moment is the prolific and priority offender schemes up
and down the country; that is obviously a combination of police,
drugs workers and probation. We have found that to be a really
effective joined-up way of dealing with the problem because it
carries all three of those elements. Most forces have a limit
on the number that they can manage at any one time. If we could
expand those schemes through the diversion of some of this money,
that would probably be a popular thing for the forces.
Q410 Mr Winnick: Mr Matthews, picking
up your response to the latter questions of the Chair, we all
agree that cocaine is a highly dangerous drug and it would be
most desirable if no-one took it, but as long as there is a demand
for it, are you really telling us that this war is going to be
won and can be won? The answer really is "no", is it
not?
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
Certainly the war cannot be won by policing alone. You cannot
police this problem out. It is a problem for the UK, but I do
believe that measures that are being put in place are significantly
mitigating against the risks that this problem represents at the
moment.
Q411 Mr Winnick: As long as demand
exists, the gangsters and all these other criminals involved will
ply their trade at every possible opportunity. It is really a
question of how demand can be reduced. That is the crux of the
matter.
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
Without any shadow of doubt, I concur with that. I was talking
to somebody in the cells only two weeks ago who was arrested for
possession of cocaine. When I asked the question "Why do
you do it? Why do you take it when it could be dangerous for you?"
he said, "You know what? It costs about the same as two or
three pints of lager and I get a bigger buzz out of it".
There is your demand.
Q412 Chairman: If you could help
us track down Mr Halliwell, we would be grateful. We have been
trying to do so for a few weeks and we cannot find him.
Assistant Chief Constable Matthews:
We will certainly do so.
Chairman: We may write to you again requesting
some statistics and other information. We are most grateful. We
know that you are both extremely busy. Thank you very much.
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