Examination of Witnesses (Questions 540
- 559)
TUESDAY 1 DECEMBER 2009
MR BILL
HUGHES AND
MR NEIL
GILES
Q540 Chairman: In terms of the British
criminals, in answer to Mr Russell's question, is it not possible
to estimate the number of British criminals involved in the whole
show basically, not parts of it?
Mr Hughes: We have done work on
mapping, as you are aware, where we have identified about 8,000
persons of interest to SOCA. Most of those—probably about
40% to 50% of them—are engaged in drug trafficking of some
sort and many of those, because it is not just one drug—
Q541 Chairman: Was this the famous
list, Mr Hughes, where some people were found to have died or
is this a different list?
Mr Hughes: This is the mapping
list of persons of interest to SOCA and there is another mapping
list as well that we have done with our colleagues in the police
service, people who are actively involved in serious organised
crime. Why would we be interested in people who have died?
Q542 Chairman: SOCA has published
a list before—
Mr Hughes: We have not published
it, this is what we are working on.
Q543 Chairman: SOCA published a list
and some of those criminals were no longer with us. Of the 8,000
of interest, are those British criminals?
Mr Hughes: They are people impacting
on the UK. The majority of them will be UK nationals, some of
them will be in prison already and still working on organised
crime and some are outside the UK but impacting on the UK. That
is what we work on, those who impact on the UK. There are other
foreign nationals in that list as well though because they impact
on the UK.
Q544 Chairman: In answer to Mr Russell's
question you have 8,000 of interest.
Mr Hughes: Overall in terms of
serious organised criminals, and that list is being added to.
Of that probably around 40% are involved in drug trafficking and
some of that will be cocaine but they get mixed up with all other
drugs as well. To answer your question though, originally Colombians
would get very involved all the way into the UK, now they are
handing off because they do not want to be arrested, so you are
getting British criminals going out there and starting a shipment
process early.
Q545 Bob Russell: It is 8,000 in
round figures, of whom about 40% are British.
Mr Hughes: Involved in drug trafficking.
Q546 Bob Russell: One assumes then
that in excess of 40% are Colombian.
Mr Hughes: No, it does not work
like that.
Q547 Bob Russell: It was a simple
question and I thought I was getting a good answer but now I am
getting confused. I will put the whole lot in one package. How
many are British criminals, how many are Colombian and what other
nationalities are involved?
Mr Hughes: We do not know how
many are Colombian, we do know that about 40% of the 8,000 persons
of interest are engaged in drug trafficking and some of that will
be cocaine. The cocaine side in terms of Colombia has a lot of
upstream work around production, trafficking, transport and people
who launder the money back; there is quite a large number of Colombians
who launder the money back as well. I cannot answer that question.
Q548 Bob Russell: But it is predominantly
British and Colombian.
Mr Hughes: Yes.
Q549 Bob Russell: And a smattering
of what other nationalities?
Mr Hughes: There would be everybody
involved in all of that because we also deal with the Spanish
and the Dutch and others in Europe where they are tracking through
Europe as well.
Q550 Bob Russell: As far as this
country is concerned it is predominantly British.
Mr Hughes: Coming into the UK
it is predominantly Colombian and UK.
Q551 Tom Brake: Mr Hughes, can you
give us any examples—without breaching confidence obviously—of
where SOCA-provided intelligence has led to the arrest of high
level traffickers in other countries abroad?
Mr Giles: If I may, we realise
that we have most impact when we identify high value traffickers
upstream and pursue them and take accountability to their doorstep,
so we do that whenever we get the opportunity from the intelligence
that we gather. Since I have been looking after this upstream
cocaine programme we think we have identified 36 of the highest
value traffickers and of those 14 have been arrested by partner
agencies and are the subject of some sort of proceedings or are
in prison, 75 are dead because the trade they are engaged in is
a dangerous trade and there is internecine fighting between various
groups. Of the remainder six are currently on target with our
colleagues abroad, which leaves 11 yet to be taken into investigation.
That is where we are at with those of most value to the UK.
Mr Hughes: That is just in Central
America of course.
Q552 Tom Brake: I was going to say
are they exclusively in Colombia, predominantly in Colombia, and
are these the sorts of people that occasionally you read about
in the press who have large haciendas, 17 cars and three armed
bodyguards? Is that the sort of person that is being talked about?
Mr Giles: Yes, it is. If I can
link that to another issue, certainly elements of casework undertaken
in Colombia by Colombian partners last year resulted in the seizure
of well over $100 million worth of assets, numerous cars, helicopters,
watches and businesses. These were cases that we had a very close
partnership involvement in.
Q553 Tom Brake: Can I also ask you
whether, if you identify someone that you believe is a high level
trafficker and you have got in your view evidence that points
to that person very definitely being a key player, do you have
powers to insist that the Colombian authorities take action or
do you have to hand it over to them and say "We think this
person is a high level trafficker, we think you should go and
arrest him", but it is down to them whether they decide to
act on it?
Mr Hughes: Perhaps it is best
if I answer this. We have a very strong working relationship with
President Uribe's government and his counter-narcotics, anti-narcotics
officers. We have a protocol and an MoU with them about how we
operate jointly in Colombia. That has meant that we have a very
clear understanding about tasking of operations and how that works
and our officers are so closely embedded in what they are doing
that they are part of the team. In effect it is a joint decision
on who gets targeted, but we will have the same criteria and that
is the work we do. We have good relations with the Fiscale in
Colombia as well about prosecutions and about asset seizure work
that is being done over in Colombia, so we provide a lot of technical
support for them to do their jobs as well.
Q554 Tom Brake: Can I ask you whether
there have been circumstances in which you have recommended action
but they have said "We do not think this is the right time,
we want to pursue other lines of inquiry"?
Mr Hughes: I am not aware of any.
That would be a matter for them as a sovereign country anyway
to decide upon that aspect. I am not aware of that, that has never
happened as far as I am concerned.
Q555 Tom Brake: One final very quick
question. Obviously we have talked a lot about Colombia but there
are other countries involved. Do you have an equally good relationship
with Venezuela or Brazil or any other players in South America?
Mr Hughes: Our relationship with
Venezuela is good and in some instances that causes surprise,
but it is a good working relationship and we have had a lot of
good work that we have done with them and with the Maritime Assessment
Centre in Lisbon which deals with seven countries that are interdicting
stuff. A lot of the ships that we interdict are from Venezuela
and of course we have then to arrange with the Venezuelan authorities
about where the ship is returned to and where the cocaine is returned
to, so we have a very good working relationship with them. In
terms of other countries, Peru and Bolivia, it is more difficult,
and with Ecuador, but they are areas that we try to work on on
a regional basis through our officers based in Colombia. We also
have officers based in Venezuela and Brazil and if we can find
the resources we will extend our reach in South America.
Q556 Mr Winnick: Our report into
SOCA, Mr Hughes, made the point that there is a budget of £430
million a year for your organisation. As far as assets are concerned
it is £21 million that you have seized since SOCA began.
You can confirm that is the position.
Mr Hughes: It is something like
that figure, yes, plus there are also confiscation orders made
plus there are also restraining orders which have yet to pass
through the civil action claim form yet, so there is still lots
more to add to that yet.
Q557 Mr Winnick: The Government's
paper Drugs: protecting families and communities lists
asset recovery as one of the priorities. Are you reasonably optimistic
that this figure of £21 million will be substantially increased?
Mr Hughes: It will. You will recall
our last discussions on this here at this Committee. One of the
areas that we are looking at particularly is to demonstrate where
we have prevented money from being taken out of the UK economy
because of the work that we do around serious organised crime,
not just drugs. If I can just give you one example that we have
worked through in terms of the assumptions that we are making,
if we assume that 10% of the seizures of cocaine that we have
made are destined for the UK market and 85 tonnes of cocaine were
seized upstream in 2008, if we just say that 10% of that, 8.5
tonnes, was on its way here, using the March 2009 price which
was £45,000 per kilo, that means that we have prevented from
going into the economy and therefore going back to the producers
over £380 million that would have left the UK and gone to
other people. It is areas like that, and that is just one part
of the work that we are doing. When you couple that with things
that we are doing with HMRC about tax credit frauds, which are
considerably in excess of that figure, we are demonstrating our
value for money.
Q558 Mr Winnick: It is of course
a huge sum, £430 million a year budget. No one, Mr Hughes,
underestimates the position as far as criminal activity is concerned,
everyone recognises—I am sure everyone in this room as well
as outside—that it is very complex, very difficult and it
is longstanding, but would you accept that to some extent at least
SOCA is on probation?
Mr Hughes: We have moved on beyond
that. You referred to your report, which of course contains some
inaccuracies which I will be writing to you about, in which you
talk about the Cabinet Office and the Prime Minister's Strategy
Unit review of extending our reach, which you describe as a criticism
of SOCA or a review of SOCA. It was nothing of the sort, it was
a review of how the UK deals with serious organised crime and
actually when you read the report it validates what we have been
doing in SOCA and they want to see us do more of it, particularly
overseas, and that is what we are looking to do if we get the
resources to do it. In terms of our budget, if you talk to the
Home Office you will find that we are seen as offering a very
cost-effective approach in terms of law enforcement and so we
are working on the basis that the money that is given to us by
taxpayers we intend to spend very wisely and carefully, we have
been making efficiency savings every year and intend to continue
doing that.
Q559 Mr Winnick: Clearly not everyone
is satisfied, including this Committee, about the work being carried
out by SOCA but you are full of self-confidence yourself.
Mr Hughes: I am sorry?
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