Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
360-379)
DR PETRA
MEIER AND
MS LILA
RABINOVICH
14 MAY 2009
Q360 Dr Naysmith: Why do they not?
Mr Beadles: Because I think the
market has moved in that direction. There are not that many consumers
that I am aware of that have been asking for smaller glasses,
but I think that consumers should have the choice and be able
to make their own decisions about these things and should be aware
of the size of the glass that they have got.
Q361 Dr Naysmith: What happens in
most establishments is people go up to the bar and say, "A
glass of red wine." Most people do not know what size they
are getting until they have got it in their hand. Actually there
is very little to suggest that, if you want a smaller measure
of wine, you should ask for a smaller glass but in some establishments,
when they do, there is not one available. Do you think that this
increase in the size of glass has had any harm on public health?
Mr Beadles: I do not know whether
it has had any harm on public health. I do not know what the relationship
there is. I am in a slight difficulty in answering this question
as I do not speak on behalf of the pub industry, I speak on behalf
of the wine industry, not the people who are serving it within
the pub industry. Again I go back to my point, which is that I
do believe as consumers we should have the choice of a small,
medium or large glass.
Q362 Dr Naysmith: And it should be
made quite clear that the different sizes are available?
Mr Beadles: Yes. I do not advocate
more glasses, I am advocating measures, because I do not believe
we should all have to go out and buy new glasses.
Q363 Dr Naysmith: What do you think
about this, Mr Blood?
Mr Blood: I think that people
are drinking a lot more wine at home and getting used to pouring
themselves a glass of wine at home, and when people are at home
the glass they pour tends to be much closer to the 175 size than
the 125 that was the tradition in pubs. There has undoubtedly
been a change from the norm over the last 15 years. Obviously
pub retailers benefit from that, they sell more and they get a
higher price. It has been in the interests of the pub industry
to support that consumer drift. I think now the most responsible
way that we should move forward, as Jeremy has said, is that we
need to look at ourselves and start selling the three different
sizes and giving people full choice.
Q364 Dr Naysmith: Mr Beadles, you
probably know quite a lot about community alcohol partnerships,
and the one at St Neots has got quite a lot of praise recently.
Mr Beadles: It has.
Q365 Dr Naysmith: What lessons do
you think we can learn from that?
Mr Beadles: I think we can learn
a lot of lessons. I would, firstly, like to say that that was
a small pilot project—the numbers from it are great, but
it is a small project with numbers that are on a short timescale—but
from that we are really rolling out at great speed into different
parts of the country. The one we are most excited about is in
Kent, where we have a partnership with Kent County Council and
Kent Constabulary. We are extending the remit beyond simply looking
to tackle under age sales and under age drinking and looking to
tackle more of, I suppose, the 18-24 drinking categories. Particularly
in Canterbury, we are linking up for the first time with the on-trade,
which we are very excited about. So we are putting this altogether.
What we think we are developing is not a silver bullet, but we
think it is a solution that can work. It needs to be tailored
to every single circumstance. For example, we have got one going
in the Isle of Wight. The Isle of Wight market place is radically
different from some of the towns in Kent, and they have got different
issues and different problems, and so we have to come up with
different solutions, but what it does is it brings the businesses,
the police, the local authority, health, education together along
with the community and the community themselves get involved in
(1) identifying what their particular problems are and (2) coming
up with the solutions, and then the different partners put the
solutions to work. I think what it does is it builds up a trust
element between business and the police and trading standards
authorities in particular. In Kent we are looking at educational
pilots and working in schools; so we are linking up in schools
in Kent. I think that is a huge step forward. I think we need
to concentrate much more in this country on the quality of standard
of alcohol education we give to young people in schools, and we
are making the link back to the parents. A lot of the time you
have got kids trying to buy alcohol in stores, they are drinking
in parks and things like that: some of the time the parents are
aware, but a lot of the time they are not. I think we need to
make the link back to those parents, and we do that with the schools
as well so that we are beginning to get this working. As I say,
we are very pleased with the progress that we are making. We now
have about nine of them rolling out in different scales around
the country, and we have got more planned. Croydon are announcing
this week that they are going to do a community outlook partnership
in Croydon and Canterbury University are going to be tracking
the data in Kent so that we have got a proper academic study that
backs the success of the project.
Q366 Dr Naysmith: Some cynical people
would say that this is just a bit of public relations to try and
pretend that you are doing something about the problem. I am not
saying that; I am just asking what your response would be if you
were asked that question.
Mr Beadles: I think businesses
have got some serious skin in the game. PR is great, but actually
we have got some serious skin in the game. If you lose your licence,
if you are a small business you are probably out of a job and
you will be making your workforce redundant; if you are a large
business, a superstore losing its licence could equate to 10 or
15 million pounds worth of sales over a six-month period, so substantial
skin in the game. For us a lot of it is about making sure that
we build relationships with the licensees and the police officers
to get over that, because we recognise that there are some people
in our industry who do not meet the standards that we think they
should do, and one of the things that we found working in community
alcohol partnerships is that we identify all the businesses in
the locality, we ask them all to participate, all the local independent
businesses are offered the opportunity to go through training
provided for free by one of the major multiple retailers to bring
them up to the standard, we will provide them with all the poster
materials, et cetera, and get them involved. If at that point
they are not prepared to play the game, if they are still selling
to kids and things like that, then we ask the police to enforce
against them and to take their licence away. So it is a key element
to it, it is not just a PR exercise: it is actually about tackling
the problems.
Q367 Chairman: Jeremy, is another
key element that 129 young people were stopped and searched by
the police?
Mr Beadles: It depends what you
mean by "stopped and searched".
Q368 Chairman: I am quoting from
Cambridgeshire County Council's report on St Neots. Is that a
key element? Do we not have that type of law enforcement?
Mr Beadles: When the police refer
to "stop and search" in this instance, what they are
talking about is going into parks and finding young people with
cans of beer, cider, wine and taking the alcohol off them and
taking them home to their parents. In this instance, that is what
the police are referring to in terms of "stop and search".
I am very happy to provide the committee with confirmation of
that, because it is a question that has been raised with me in
another venue about how the police have used this terminology.
This is not about shaking down young people in the streets in
that kind of way.
Q369 Stephen Hesford: To Jeremy really
and to David. In terms of your contribution to the Drink Aware
Trust, how much you give them a year and stuff, do you know off
the top of your head how much you do pay?
Mr Blood: I do not know off the
top of my head.
Q370 Stephen Hesford: Do you know
what your advertising spend is, your marketing spend?
Mr Blood: Yes.
Q371 Stephen Hesford: What is that?
Mr Blood: Obviously, it is commercially
sensitive. We do not publish it as a figure, but it is in excess
of £50 million.
Q372 Stephen Hesford: In terms of
your contribution to the Drink Aware Trust and in terms of the
£50 million, what relationship between the two figures, roughly,
might there be?
Mr Blood: The Drink Aware Trust
per annum is one or two million, a much smaller quantity.
Q373 Stephen Hesford: Drink Aware
Trust: one or two million. Advertising: 50 million. Do you think
that is responsible? Is it proportionate?
Mr Blood: As a business we collect
over a billion pounds in excise revenue; so our advertising spend
compared to our revenue collection for excise is hugely disproportionate
as well. I am not ashamed of the numbers, but I do not think they
are comparable. I do not think they sit side by side.
Q374 Stephen Hesford: You are comfortable
with that?
Mr Blood: Yes.
Q375 Stephen Hesford: David, the
same question. I think you said you did not know before.
Mr North: It is somewhere around
£75,000, I believe.
Q376 Stephen Hesford: Seventy five
thousand pounds; and your advertising spend on alcohol promotion?
Mr North: I do not have the numbers
on advertising spend.
Q377 Stephen Hesford: Roughly?
Mr North: I am afraid I do not
have the numbers.
Q378 Stephen Hesford: Can you supply
them to us?
Mr North: I can supply them to
you. The comment I would make, though, if I can, is that I am
not sure that I would measure our approach to trying tackle the
problem of—
Q379 Stephen Hesford: No, but it
is our inquiry. We might.
Mr North: But I do not think that
the amount that we pay directly to the Drink Aware Trust is a
measure of our commitment to tackling alcohol harm.
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