Examination of Witness (Question Number
1135-1139)
DR MALCOLM
JACK
24 FEBRUARY 2010
Q1135 Chairman: Dr Jack, thank you very
much for coming back.
Dr Jack: Not at all.
Chairman: This is now your third appearance
before the Committee. I think you are aware that a question has
arisen in relation to your recollection as to when you first became
aware of the circumstances with which this Committee's investigation
is concerned. Members of the Committee would like to put a number
of questions to you in the hope that we can better understand
your evidence on that point.
Q1136 Ann Coffey: Dr Jack, when you
came to the Committee you were quite adamant on three occasions
that you had heard that Damian Green had been arrested while you
were watching television or listening to a news channel in your
office and you identified that time at 2.20 which was corroborated
by Jill Pay because she received a telephone call around that
time to come to your office, and when she came you said you already
knew about the arrest because you had seen it on the television.
The problem with it is that the story did not break until 7.30
that evening, there was no way it was on any news channel at 2.20
that day. I wondered if, thinking about it and looking back on
it, you might indeed have seen it but much later that day and
thought you had seen it earlier that day, although in actual fact
had heard it from some other source.
Dr Jack: Thank you very much.
I think that really you have put your finger on one part of this
business, namely that when Jill Pay came to see me I already knew
about this, so I did know about that at the time. I do not know
whether it is helpful or notplease intervene if it is notbut
the sequence of events really was that I was in my office at that
time. It was approximately 2.20, I think that has come out in
previous evidence. I was following the news quite closely because
Members will recollect the Mumbai episode was carrying on, the
siege of the hotel in Mumbai. That was really the reason why I
was following the news so intently because, for obvious reasons,
it was something important and it might have had repercussions
here. I had not, as you know from evidence given already, had
any contact either with the Speaker or the Serjeant that morning,
so I knew nothing of the events that had taken place. I was working
in my office, the TV was on because I was following the Mumbai
thing, but I was also on the internet. I want to be absolutely
as accurate as I can, Chairman. David Hume talked about the vivacity
of memory sometimes not fading but not being so vivid. It could
be, and I think I say that in my letter to the Committee of 11
December, that I was not watching Sky News. I thought normally
that I did have Sky News on because they are usually the latest
with the news, or most up-to-date.
Chairman: They will be pleased by that
reference.
Q1137 Sir Malcolm Rifkind: On the
record.
Dr Jack: Indeed. As I said, I
also had the screen on. This is where I hesitate because I am
trying not to import hindsight into the occasion. I am pretty
sure I am not talking about a report as such, I am not talking
about people sitting round a table reporting news. As far as I
can recollect it was just something coming across.
Q1138 Ann Coffey: Dr Jack, I have
to say to you that the first time this story broke was 7.30 on
Sky. The way the news media works is that as soon as something
appears somewhere, within about 30 seconds it is on every single
channel, every news outlet, and there is no way that story, if
it had been there at around about that time, would not have appeared
some time after 2.20, within the next 30 seconds, but certainly
by 7.30 that evening. I have gone to considerable trouble to search
exactly what was on the news that day and all the evidence is
that there was nothing about the arrest of Damian Green on any
news channel until Sky News at 7.30 that night. The Standard,
which has a deadline of 3.30 and would certainly have reported
it if it appeared, did not break the story until the following
day. The Press Association did not break the story until 20:41
that evening. There was absolutely nothing on any news channel
that you could have seen or heard that gave the news of Damian
Green's arrest. What I am asking you is, is there some other way
you might have heard about it? Perhaps you had a telephone call
that alerted it to you because there were a lot of telephone calls
made around about that time from people phoning each other. The
police were phoning people, Boris Johnson's office was phoning
people, people were phoning David Cameron's office. Is there any
way that you could have in fact heard that from a telephone call
because actually there is no way you could have heard it on a
news channel?
Dr Jack: I can only go on my own
recollection. I think that one thing I should tell the Committee,
which I think I mention in my letter but I did not want to rely
on it too much, was the reaction of my secretary, who clearly
recollects me, I will not use the word "storming" out
of the room, but rushing out of my room and using the phrase,
"What the hell is going on? Get the Serjeant". I can
absolutely assure the Committee that was when I first learned
of this news.
Q1139 Ann Coffey: I am not disputing
that at all, Dr Jack. There is no dispute about that because when
Jill Pay came to see you you told her that you knew. There is
absolutely no dispute that you heard something that you did not
know before and that it startled you, but what I am saying to
you is that you did not hear it from any news outlet. I am asking
you to think again.
Dr Jack: I understand exactly
why you are asking me. As I said, all I can say is that is my
recollection of it. I cannot visualise it, I am talking about
something that would have just come across the screen or words.
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