Police Searches on the Parliamentary Estate - Committee on the Issue of Privilege Contents


Examination of Witness (Question Number 1135-1139)

DR MALCOLM JACK

24 FEBRUARY 2010

  Q1135 Chairman: Dr Jack, thank you very much for coming back.

  Dr Jack: Not at all.

  Chairman: This is now your third appearance before the Committee. I think you are aware that a question has arisen in relation to your recollection as to when you first became aware of the circumstances with which this Committee's investigation is concerned. Members of the Committee would like to put a number of questions to you in the hope that we can better understand your evidence on that point.

  Q1136  Ann Coffey: Dr Jack, when you came to the Committee you were quite adamant on three occasions that you had heard that Damian Green had been arrested while you were watching television or listening to a news channel in your office and you identified that time at 2.20 which was corroborated by Jill Pay because she received a telephone call around that time to come to your office, and when she came you said you already knew about the arrest because you had seen it on the television. The problem with it is that the story did not break until 7.30 that evening, there was no way it was on any news channel at 2.20 that day. I wondered if, thinking about it and looking back on it, you might indeed have seen it but much later that day and thought you had seen it earlier that day, although in actual fact had heard it from some other source.

  Dr Jack: Thank you very much. I think that really you have put your finger on one part of this business, namely that when Jill Pay came to see me I already knew about this, so I did know about that at the time. I do not know whether it is helpful or not—please intervene if it is not—but the sequence of events really was that I was in my office at that time. It was approximately 2.20, I think that has come out in previous evidence. I was following the news quite closely because Members will recollect the Mumbai episode was carrying on, the siege of the hotel in Mumbai. That was really the reason why I was following the news so intently because, for obvious reasons, it was something important and it might have had repercussions here. I had not, as you know from evidence given already, had any contact either with the Speaker or the Serjeant that morning, so I knew nothing of the events that had taken place. I was working in my office, the TV was on because I was following the Mumbai thing, but I was also on the internet. I want to be absolutely as accurate as I can, Chairman. David Hume talked about the vivacity of memory sometimes not fading but not being so vivid. It could be, and I think I say that in my letter to the Committee of 11 December, that I was not watching Sky News. I thought normally that I did have Sky News on because they are usually the latest with the news, or most up-to-date.

  Chairman: They will be pleased by that reference.

  Q1137  Sir Malcolm Rifkind: On the record.

  Dr Jack: Indeed. As I said, I also had the screen on. This is where I hesitate because I am trying not to import hindsight into the occasion. I am pretty sure I am not talking about a report as such, I am not talking about people sitting round a table reporting news. As far as I can recollect it was just something coming across.

  Q1138  Ann Coffey: Dr Jack, I have to say to you that the first time this story broke was 7.30 on Sky. The way the news media works is that as soon as something appears somewhere, within about 30 seconds it is on every single channel, every news outlet, and there is no way that story, if it had been there at around about that time, would not have appeared some time after 2.20, within the next 30 seconds, but certainly by 7.30 that evening. I have gone to considerable trouble to search exactly what was on the news that day and all the evidence is that there was nothing about the arrest of Damian Green on any news channel until Sky News at 7.30 that night. The Standard, which has a deadline of 3.30 and would certainly have reported it if it appeared, did not break the story until the following day. The Press Association did not break the story until 20:41 that evening. There was absolutely nothing on any news channel that you could have seen or heard that gave the news of Damian Green's arrest. What I am asking you is, is there some other way you might have heard about it? Perhaps you had a telephone call that alerted it to you because there were a lot of telephone calls made around about that time from people phoning each other. The police were phoning people, Boris Johnson's office was phoning people, people were phoning David Cameron's office. Is there any way that you could have in fact heard that from a telephone call because actually there is no way you could have heard it on a news channel?

  Dr Jack: I can only go on my own recollection. I think that one thing I should tell the Committee, which I think I mention in my letter but I did not want to rely on it too much, was the reaction of my secretary, who clearly recollects me, I will not use the word "storming" out of the room, but rushing out of my room and using the phrase, "What the hell is going on? Get the Serjeant". I can absolutely assure the Committee that was when I first learned of this news.

  Q1139  Ann Coffey: I am not disputing that at all, Dr Jack. There is no dispute about that because when Jill Pay came to see you you told her that you knew. There is absolutely no dispute that you heard something that you did not know before and that it startled you, but what I am saying to you is that you did not hear it from any news outlet. I am asking you to think again.

  Dr Jack: I understand exactly why you are asking me. As I said, all I can say is that is my recollection of it. I cannot visualise it, I am talking about something that would have just come across the screen or words.



 
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