Examination of Witness (Question Number
1140-1159)
DR MALCOLM
JACK
24 FEBRUARY 2010
Q1140 Ann Coffey: Dr Jack, I do not
know how many times I have to say this. It did not appear on any
news channel. This is a fact. I do not think you could say to
the Committee, "This is my recollection, it appeared on a
news channel" when clearly all the evidence is that it did
not appear on any news channel. As you say, memory is sometimes
a very tricky thing and in the course of events recollections
get conflated into things. Could you have had a telephone call?
Dr Jack: I really am searching
my memory. I would have to have the telephone call from someone
who knew these facts and the only two people in the Palace who
knew about this were the Speaker and the Serjeant, and both of
them have told you in evidence that they had no contact with me.
Obviously I am not a media specialist of any sort but I am not
sure that things that go across the screen are kept. You are talking
about news reports, which I entirely accept.
Q1141 Ann Coffey: Dr Jack, what I
am saying to you is that the way the news media works in this
country is that when a story breaks, whether it is going across
the screen or on the internet, every single news agency picks
up on that. If there had been a report going across a screen or
whatever, it was such a significant piece of information that
within about ten seconds it would have been on every news media
outlet. There is no evidence at all, looking particularly through
the news coverage of Sky on that day, which I asked Sky to look
through their records of, that there was any reporting of the
arrest of Damian Green until 7.30 that night when it was reported
by Sky News and immediately picked up by someone else. This is
just not possible.
Dr Jack: Well, I think we have
reached a dead end, have we not? I can only tell you what my recollection
is.
Q1142 Mr Blunkett: On reflection,
is there any other way in which you might have picked up that
information?
Dr Jack: As I say, it would have
to come from someone who knew that information obviously. I had
no contact with the Speaker, I had no contact with the Serjeant
or with the police throughout the episode. I had no contact with
the police at all. No, I do not think I can think of any other
source for it.
Q1143 Chairman: Can I ask some questions
about your reaction?
Dr Jack: Yes, please.
Q1144 Chairman: From what you say,
irrespective of the timing, your reaction was instant.
Dr Jack: Yes, indeed.
Q1145 Chairman: I do not know if
you used an expletive but effectively you said, "What the
hell is going on here?"
Dr Jack: Exactly.
Q1146 Chairman: You say that lies
now within the recollection of your secretary?
Dr Jack: Yes, it does.
Q1147 Chairman: What times does your
secretary normally go home?
Dr Jack: Around 6-ish, something
like that, 6.30.
Q1148 Chairman: So if your secretary
had a recollection of you responding in the way you have described
then self-evidently that could only be whilst she was in the room
and self-evidently whilst she was at work?
Dr Jack: Yes, that is correct.
Q1149 Chairman: If she goes home
around 6.00 then the inference is that she could not have been
in your office or outside your office, wherever she sits, at 7.20?
Dr Jack: Her recollection is quite
clear that it is at that time because that led to the sequence
of calling the Serjeant.
Q1150 Chairman: If it was that time
then it is at a time you would not normally expect her to be there,
is that right?
Dr Jack: No, sorry, I meant in
the afternoon. As I say, what happened was as soon as I learnt
this news of course, as I said earlier on, I was startled, I think
I used that word in my previous evidence to you. I asked my secretary
to get hold of the Serjeant at once, ring the Serjeant at once
and also, at the same time, we retrieved the file on arrest and
search which contained the McKay Memorandum that the Committee
is now familiar with. Then I started to write a brief for the
Speaker.[1]
It was the sequence of events which led to the Serjeant coming
that times my secretary's recollection, although of course, as
I think you have also heard in evidence, the Serjeant said she
was in fact coming anyway. These things happened simultaneously.
Q1151 Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Can I ask
you when you recollect what you think you heard on Sky or some
other media, did it specifically mention Damian Green, did it
specifically mention that he was arrested or simply that something
was happening?
Dr Jack: Something was happening.
I think it was, "Member of Parliament arrested, MP arrested".
I want to be absolutely careful about this, whether it was a moving
thing or—
Q1152 Chairman: You mean a strap?
Dr Jack: A strap, yes. I also
had the internet on and it is possible that it was on the internet.
Sir Malcolm Rifkind: It is not possible
someone sent you an email?
Q1153 Chairman: We know that Mr Andrew
Mackay knew about this matter because, of course, he was in the
office and was ushered out.
Dr Jack: Yes, that is true, Chairman,
yes.
Q1154 Ms Hewitt: If I can build on
that point. By 2.20 and certainly by 2.30 a lot of people knew.
Dr Jack: Yes.
Q1155 Ms Hewitt: Clearly there were
a large number of Metropolitan police officers who knew including,
in particular, the Metropolitan Police within the parliamentary
estate. Boris Johnson and the Mayor's office knew; David Cameron
and his office knew. At 2.10 the search of Damian Green's office
started and, as our Chairman has just said, Andrew Mackay was
filming that. By 2.20 the Home Secretary and her office also knew.
Actually in terms of the Westminster village that is quite a lot
of people.
Dr Jack: Yes.
Q1156 Ms Hewitt: Therefore, listening
to your evidence and having gone back over the paperwork I must
say I found myself wondering whether, for instance, one of the
senior Metropolitan police officers on the estate might have phoned
you or indeed emailed you. When you say you had the internet on,
do you mean the parliamentary intranet and the Outlook stuff we
use for our own email or do you mean the public internet and in
which case what kind of sites were you using?
Dr Jack: This goes back to what
I was saying about following the Mumbai affair, it was the internet
not the intranet.
Q1157 Ms Hewitt: It was the public
internet?
Dr Jack: Yes, certainly. I was
following this quite closely.
Q1158 Ann Coffey: It is very perplexing,
but I have to say again, Dr Jack, even if it was on the internet,
even if they were reporting it in Japan and it was flashing across
the internet, the news media in this country would have picked
it up. "MP arrested" is a huge headline and it made
huge news, but as far as I can tell that story did not appear
in any form at all until Sky broke the news that Damian Green
had been arrested at 7.30 and all the other news media followed
that. I am asking you again because there were a lot of people
involved and it is easy to conflate things, particularly if you
have been watching things and get a piece of information and it
may be that you had a telephone call which you have forgotten
about because you had been entirely focused on listening to the
news. Memory is a curious thing. I am just asking you if it was
possible, given the range of people, that perhaps you did have
a telephone call, that you were so concentrated on looking at
the internet that you conflated those pieces of information and
genuinely did believe that you heard it from a news piece but
actually heard it from a telephone call?
Dr Jack: That is certainly possible,
yes, I would accept that is possible. As I say, I have been very
careful not to give evidence which I am not sure of but, of course,
yes that is possible.
Q1159 Ann Coffey: But you have already
given evidence that you were not sure about because you were quite
adamant that you heard it on Sky News and then later said that
perhaps you had not heard it on Sky News and then later said you
heard it on the internet. So you have already given evidence that
you were not quite sure about.
Dr Jack: Which channel it was
on, yes, I accept that. Sure, as I say the television channel
was on, the internet was on, I do accept what you have said.
1 Note by witness: My brief for the Speaker
on Thursday 27 November 2008 was based on the McKay Memorandum
of July 2000 about arrest and the use of search warrants within
the precincts (see Ev 178-9). Back
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