Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
220-239)
DR MALCOLM
JACK, MS
JACQY SHARPE,
MR MICHAEL
CARPENTER AND
MS VERONICA
DALY
9 NOVEMBER 2009
Q220 Chairman: How far is the Speaker
able, or is it open to him, to delegate any of those responsibilities
you have just described to you in your capacity as Clerk?
Dr Jack: No, not his chairmanship
of the Commission and a host of decisions really that he personally
is required to make. I will of course always be available to advise
him on those matters but the authority is vested in him.
Q221 Chairman: In relation to that
advice, is this something in respect of which you would wait until
consulted or something in respect of which you would take the
initiative if you were aware from the various sources of information
available to you that there was an issue upon which your advice
would be important?
Dr Jack: I would take the initiative
certainly, particularly if I thoughtif I might put it colloquiallythere
was any danger to the Speaker, if information came to me. On the
other hand, I put this rather delicately, Speakers have their
own minds to make up and if it is quite clear to me that the Speaker
has made up his mind then that is that.
Q222 Sir Malcolm Rifkind: As you
know, the Committee are primarily concerned with the question
of privileges of the House and the extent to which they might
be affected by actions of the police in regard to the arrest of
a Member or search of his premises. On matters of that kind is
your role advisory or do you have the power to take a decision?
Dr Jack: I have no power to take
a decision; it is advisory.
Q223 Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Is it only
the Speaker who has the power to take a decision?
Dr Jack: Yes. This brings us to
this slightly mysterious term "exclusive cognizance"
so far as the precincts of the House are concerned; I think that
is what we are talking about. The privileges of the House are
invested in the Speaker and he is the authority. However, my duty
is to make sure he is properly advised.
Q224 Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I do not
for the moment want to go into what happened on the day but I
am really trying to get a feel for the relationship between you
and other officials and the Speaker. If the police, not just on
this particular occasion but as a general principle, request the
right to search a Member's office, is that in your judgment a
decision that the Serjeant at Arms can take or that you can take
or is it only the Speaker of the House who can ultimately agree
to sign a consent form or give authority for that to be signed?
Dr Jack: In respect of the Member's
office, it is the Speaker.
Q225 Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Not necessarily
that he has to sign the consent form himself but that he would
have to have given authority for it to be signed.
Dr Jack: Yes.
Q226 Sir Malcolm Rifkind: You are
quite clear about that.
Dr Jack: Yes, I am quite clear
about that.
Q227 Chairman: To which other servants
of the House would he be entitled to give that authority?
Dr Jack: Traditionally he would
only give that authority to the Serjeant. The authority is delegated
in the Serjeant. The Serjeant is appointed to attend upon the
Speaker for matters of this nature, security matters, precinct
matters and so on. It would be the Serjeant.
Q228 Sir Malcolm Rifkind: May I ask
another general point, again not wanting you to comment on the
precise details of what happened on this particular day? If the
Speaker receives confidential information or what he is told is
very confidential information, which we understand happens not
infrequently, would there be any reason why he could not consult
with you as Clerk of the House as to what is the proper procedure
to pursue in such a situation?
Dr Jack: No, there is no reason
why he could not consult me about anything.
Q229 Sir Malcolm Rifkind: He would
be able obviously to rely on your discretion to respect the confidence.
Dr Jack: Yes; absolutely.
Q230 Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I am not
asking you to give examples, but over the period of time you have
served as Clerk of the House, has the Speaker from time to time
consulted you on very confidential matters which you would not
be at liberty to discuss with other members of your staff or with
other persons outside?
Dr Jack: Yes; certainly.
Q231 Sir Malcolm Rifkind: There is
no reason that you are aware of why that should not be possible
on any issue on which the Speaker might have been addressed?
Dr Jack: No I would hope that
the Speaker felt able to do that.
Q232 Chairman: Indeed it would be
essential.
Dr Jack: It would be essential.
Q233 Chairman: For the running of
the House and as an illustration of the strength of the relationship
between Clerk and Speaker.
Dr Jack: Yes; certainly.
Q234 Ann Coffey: It is a very interesting
relationship, is it not? In a sense a lot of what happens in this
House is to do with people understanding what it is about rather
than it being spelt out in protocols or guidance. People can come
quite genuinely to different understandings of who makes what
decision. The role of an adviser moving into possibly being seen
to be taking a decision or the advice being a decision is also
an area of misunderstanding. Do you think a lot of it works or
does not work depending on the relationships there are between
people?
Dr Jack: Yes, the relationships
are absolutely vital. It might just be also a good moment to point
out that of course the governance relations generally of the House
are very complex and this is something which is very little understood
outside this place. In a corporate organisation you have a board
and a chief executive and that person is responsible. There is
either a commercial policy or public policy and that is that.
The House of Commons is a much more complicated place. You have
the Speaker and the Commission. You have domestic committees,
the Finance and Services Committee, the Administration Committee,
which is an important committee representing Members' views. You
have the Leader of the House acting as the voice of the Government
but also acting for the whole House. You have the party whips,
you have the party caucuses; influence and power is diffused in
this place. The personal relations are very important in bringing
all that together.
Q235 Ann Coffey: Do you think that
part of what occurred was because the personal relationships were
perhaps not as good as they should have been between people?
Dr Jack: No, I do not think so;
no. I think there were misunderstandings which perhaps will become
clearer as we come to the details.
Q236 Chairman: To go back to your
description of yourself as chief executive spending 70% of your
time on the duties associated with that, what you are really saying
is that you are a chief executive without authority right across
the board.
Dr Jack: Yes, that is right. It
is a milieu of course that people who have spent their professional
life here are absolutely used to and perfectly comfortable with.
However, I think that a chief executiveand I know this
is a matter which arose in the Tebbit Review a few years agocoming
in from the outside would find this extremely frustrating for
the reason you have just given.
Q237 Sir Malcolm Rifkind: The Speaker
in his memorandum begins by saying that each day the House is
sitting he has a meeting with the Clerk, with the Serjeant at
Arms and other officials. May I ask you about the agenda for those
meetings? Are they simply held to discuss the business of that
day or are they an opportunity also for either the Speaker or
you or anyone else to raise more general questions which may be
of importance, where some advice may be needed by the Speaker?
Dr Jack: Yes, they are primarily
directed at going through the business of the day so that the
Speaker and the Deputy Speakers, who also attend the meeting,
the Serjeant who attends the meeting and Clerks, that everyone
is clear what the pattern of the day will bring. However, they
are indeed an opportunity for raising general matters and general
matters are raised.
Q238 Sir Malcolm Rifkind: On that
point again, without asking you to give examples, is it relatively
frequent that the Speaker at such meetings has asked for advice
relating not just to matters coming up on that day but some other
matter which is taxing him at that particular time or for which
he has responsibility?
Dr Jack: Yes, he will do that.
Yes, it is not uncommon. He might seek opinions, for example,
from the other Deputies who would be present. The answer is yes.
Q239 Mr Henderson: I put a similar
question to the Speaker. Do you think the current structures are
working? Do the various players understand their specific responsibilities
and how they relate to the others, the Speaker, you, the Serjeant
at Arms? Since the reforms in 2007 has it been working or does
it have some length to go yet?
Dr Jack: It still has a way to
go. I would not want to claim that the system was working as perfectly
as it might do. We have come a long way and great improvements
have been made. The Tebbit reforms were really directed towards
a more strategic service of delivery, delivery to Members of things
that Members need such as IT, accommodation on the estate and
all this sort of thing. We have made progress in that area.
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