Police Searches on the Parliamentary Estate - Committee on the Issue of Privilege Contents


Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers 220-239)

DR MALCOLM JACK, MS JACQY SHARPE, MR MICHAEL CARPENTER AND MS VERONICA DALY

9 NOVEMBER 2009

  Q220  Chairman: How far is the Speaker able, or is it open to him, to delegate any of those responsibilities you have just described to you in your capacity as Clerk?

  Dr Jack: No, not his chairmanship of the Commission and a host of decisions really that he personally is required to make. I will of course always be available to advise him on those matters but the authority is vested in him.

  Q221  Chairman: In relation to that advice, is this something in respect of which you would wait until consulted or something in respect of which you would take the initiative if you were aware from the various sources of information available to you that there was an issue upon which your advice would be important?

  Dr Jack: I would take the initiative certainly, particularly if I thought—if I might put it colloquially—there was any danger to the Speaker, if information came to me. On the other hand, I put this rather delicately, Speakers have their own minds to make up and if it is quite clear to me that the Speaker has made up his mind then that is that.

  Q222  Sir Malcolm Rifkind: As you know, the Committee are primarily concerned with the question of privileges of the House and the extent to which they might be affected by actions of the police in regard to the arrest of a Member or search of his premises. On matters of that kind is your role advisory or do you have the power to take a decision?

  Dr Jack: I have no power to take a decision; it is advisory.

  Q223  Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Is it only the Speaker who has the power to take a decision?

  Dr Jack: Yes. This brings us to this slightly mysterious term "exclusive cognizance" so far as the precincts of the House are concerned; I think that is what we are talking about. The privileges of the House are invested in the Speaker and he is the authority. However, my duty is to make sure he is properly advised.

  Q224  Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I do not for the moment want to go into what happened on the day but I am really trying to get a feel for the relationship between you and other officials and the Speaker. If the police, not just on this particular occasion but as a general principle, request the right to search a Member's office, is that in your judgment a decision that the Serjeant at Arms can take or that you can take or is it only the Speaker of the House who can ultimately agree to sign a consent form or give authority for that to be signed?

  Dr Jack: In respect of the Member's office, it is the Speaker.

  Q225  Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Not necessarily that he has to sign the consent form himself but that he would have to have given authority for it to be signed.

  Dr Jack: Yes.

  Q226  Sir Malcolm Rifkind: You are quite clear about that.

  Dr Jack: Yes, I am quite clear about that.

  Q227  Chairman: To which other servants of the House would he be entitled to give that authority?

  Dr Jack: Traditionally he would only give that authority to the Serjeant. The authority is delegated in the Serjeant. The Serjeant is appointed to attend upon the Speaker for matters of this nature, security matters, precinct matters and so on. It would be the Serjeant.

  Q228  Sir Malcolm Rifkind: May I ask another general point, again not wanting you to comment on the precise details of what happened on this particular day? If the Speaker receives confidential information or what he is told is very confidential information, which we understand happens not infrequently, would there be any reason why he could not consult with you as Clerk of the House as to what is the proper procedure to pursue in such a situation?

  Dr Jack: No, there is no reason why he could not consult me about anything.

  Q229  Sir Malcolm Rifkind: He would be able obviously to rely on your discretion to respect the confidence.

  Dr Jack: Yes; absolutely.

  Q230  Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I am not asking you to give examples, but over the period of time you have served as Clerk of the House, has the Speaker from time to time consulted you on very confidential matters which you would not be at liberty to discuss with other members of your staff or with other persons outside?

  Dr Jack: Yes; certainly.

  Q231  Sir Malcolm Rifkind: There is no reason that you are aware of why that should not be possible on any issue on which the Speaker might have been addressed?

  Dr Jack: No I would hope that the Speaker felt able to do that.

  Q232  Chairman: Indeed it would be essential.

  Dr Jack: It would be essential.

  Q233  Chairman: For the running of the House and as an illustration of the strength of the relationship between Clerk and Speaker.

  Dr Jack: Yes; certainly.

  Q234  Ann Coffey: It is a very interesting relationship, is it not? In a sense a lot of what happens in this House is to do with people understanding what it is about rather than it being spelt out in protocols or guidance. People can come quite genuinely to different understandings of who makes what decision. The role of an adviser moving into possibly being seen to be taking a decision or the advice being a decision is also an area of misunderstanding. Do you think a lot of it works or does not work depending on the relationships there are between people?

  Dr Jack: Yes, the relationships are absolutely vital. It might just be also a good moment to point out that of course the governance relations generally of the House are very complex and this is something which is very little understood outside this place. In a corporate organisation you have a board and a chief executive and that person is responsible. There is either a commercial policy or public policy and that is that. The House of Commons is a much more complicated place. You have the Speaker and the Commission. You have domestic committees, the Finance and Services Committee, the Administration Committee, which is an important committee representing Members' views. You have the Leader of the House acting as the voice of the Government but also acting for the whole House. You have the party whips, you have the party caucuses; influence and power is diffused in this place. The personal relations are very important in bringing all that together.

  Q235  Ann Coffey: Do you think that part of what occurred was because the personal relationships were perhaps not as good as they should have been between people?

  Dr Jack: No, I do not think so; no. I think there were misunderstandings which perhaps will become clearer as we come to the details.

  Q236  Chairman: To go back to your description of yourself as chief executive spending 70% of your time on the duties associated with that, what you are really saying is that you are a chief executive without authority right across the board.

  Dr Jack: Yes, that is right. It is a milieu of course that people who have spent their professional life here are absolutely used to and perfectly comfortable with. However, I think that a chief executive—and I know this is a matter which arose in the Tebbit Review a few years ago—coming in from the outside would find this extremely frustrating for the reason you have just given.

  Q237  Sir Malcolm Rifkind: The Speaker in his memorandum begins by saying that each day the House is sitting he has a meeting with the Clerk, with the Serjeant at Arms and other officials. May I ask you about the agenda for those meetings? Are they simply held to discuss the business of that day or are they an opportunity also for either the Speaker or you or anyone else to raise more general questions which may be of importance, where some advice may be needed by the Speaker?

  Dr Jack: Yes, they are primarily directed at going through the business of the day so that the Speaker and the Deputy Speakers, who also attend the meeting, the Serjeant who attends the meeting and Clerks, that everyone is clear what the pattern of the day will bring. However, they are indeed an opportunity for raising general matters and general matters are raised.

  Q238  Sir Malcolm Rifkind: On that point again, without asking you to give examples, is it relatively frequent that the Speaker at such meetings has asked for advice relating not just to matters coming up on that day but some other matter which is taxing him at that particular time or for which he has responsibility?

  Dr Jack: Yes, he will do that. Yes, it is not uncommon. He might seek opinions, for example, from the other Deputies who would be present. The answer is yes.

  Q239  Mr Henderson: I put a similar question to the Speaker. Do you think the current structures are working? Do the various players understand their specific responsibilities and how they relate to the others, the Speaker, you, the Serjeant at Arms? Since the reforms in 2007 has it been working or does it have some length to go yet?

  Dr Jack: It still has a way to go. I would not want to claim that the system was working as perfectly as it might do. We have come a long way and great improvements have been made. The Tebbit reforms were really directed towards a more strategic service of delivery, delivery to Members of things that Members need such as IT, accommodation on the estate and all this sort of thing. We have made progress in that area.



 
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