Examination of Witness (Question Numbers
780-799)
MS JILL
PAY
7 DECEMBER 2009
Q780 Ann Coffey: Having listened
to everything that has happened since, how do you see your authority
in respect of giving consent now?
Ms Pay: Now we have a Speaker's
Protocol, which I welcome. There is a framework now. There is
very good advice. Heaven forfend this should ever happen again,
the protocol to be followed is very, very clear and I welcome
that.
Q781 Chairman: When you went to see
the Clerk to ask what your authority was, can you tell us how
you framed the question? Did you simply say, "What if someone
wants to search a Member of Parliament's office?"
Ms Pay: It was not a "what
if" question. I said that I needed his advice on something
very confidential and then I posed the direct question.
Q782 Chairman: Can you remember the
terms of that question?
Ms Pay: Yes. I asked him if I
had the authority to consent to a search on the Parliamentary
Estate as part of a criminal investigation and he said, "Is
it a Member's office?" I said, "Yes." He said,
"You must consult the Speaker."
Q783 Chairman: He did not ask you
any more?
Ms Pay: No, he did not and I said
I could not tell him any more then but I would be able to tell
him more tomorrow, which was why I went to see him at 20 past
two.
Q784 Chairman: The doctrine of confidentiality
applied even when you were seeking advice about the precise nature
of your powers?
Ms Pay: Yes.
Q785 Chairman: I think you are probably
aware that we have explored in evidence on several occasions since
we began our inquiry the events of a meeting on 2 December.
Ms Pay: Yes.
Q786 Chairman: You will be aware
that Lord Martin told the Committee that the Clerk intervened
at some stage when you were being asked about it and said that
you had been tricked or bamboozled. Do you remember that language
being used?
Ms Pay: No, not at all.
Q787 Chairman: Do you remember the
Clerk intervening?
Ms Pay: Yes, I do, and the point
of his intervention was to say that he felt that Chief Superintendent
Bateman had a loyalty to the Metropolitan Police and also a loyalty
to Parliament. The Clerk felt that I should have been better advised.
Q788 Chairman: You have rejected
"intimidated" but would "manipulated" be a
proper description?
Ms Pay: No. I think I was pressured.
I think "pressured" would be the only word that I would
be comfortable with.
Q789 Chairman: You said a moment
or two ago you were made to go in a particular direction.
Ms Pay: Yes, I was pointed in
a particular direction.
Q790 Chairman: May I take it then
that the Committee can conclude that your view is that you were
pressured to go in a particular direction by the Metropolitan
Police?
Ms Pay: Yes.
Q791 Chairman: Were you conscious
of that at the time?
Ms Pay: At the point when I adjourned
the meeting to go and seek advice from the Clerk, I felt under
pressure. I did not feel at the time that I was being pressured
in a particular direction because they had convinced me about
this consent to search being lawful instead of a warrant.
Q792 Chairman: They had convinced
you. Why not tell you what the alternatives were?
Ms Pay: That is true.
Q793 Chairman: Am I correct that,
on your understanding now, they failed to provide you with the
necessary information to enable you to make a choice?
Ms Pay: Yes. I was not given the
correct guidance under the PACE code that would have opened up
a choice.
Q794 Chairman: If that is not manipulation,
what is?
Ms Pay: I think I would rather
not comment about manipulation, but I can understand what you
are getting at.
Chairman: We note your answer.
Q795 Ann Coffey: I was just going
to ask you again about when you went to see Malcolm Jack, the
Clerk, to say that Damian Green had been arrested. He said he
knew.
Ms Pay: Yes.
Q796 Ann Coffey: Did he say where
he knew from?
Ms Pay: Yes. Sky News.
He had telephoned my office to say he wanted to see me immediately
but I had left Damian Green's office on my way to see him so those
two things happened simultaneously.
Q797 Mr Blunkett: He found out. He
obviously would pick up the phone and say, "What is all this
about?" but you had already left to meet him?
Ms Pay: I had left Damian Green's
office to go and meet him. He had phoned my office. I stopped
in my office on the way to pick up the draft letter and a copy
of the consent form. They said, "The Clerk wants to see you."
I said, "I am on my way."
Q798 Mr Howard: Can I just take you
back to what you were told by the Clerk when you asked if you
had authority to consent to the search? What you said in your
statement at paragraph 15 is this: "Malcolm Jack said that
I had the authority to consent to a search, but that if a search
concerned a Member's office I must consult the Speaker."
Did that leave you with the impression that you had the authority
to consent to a search, even if it concerned a Member's office,
as long as you consulted the Speaker?
Ms Pay: Yes.
Q799 Mr Howard: The authority was
yours.
Ms Pay: That is exactly what I
understood.
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