Examination of Witness (Question Numbers
800-814)
MS JILL
PAY
7 DECEMBER 2009
Q800 Chairman: You mentioned the
Protocol—that is to say, Mr Speaker Martin's Protocol—published
I think on 8 December. Is it your view that had that been in existence
and had that been available to you that would have been of assistance
to you in dealing with these matters?
Ms Pay: Yes. It would have been
a very clear guidance and framework of how these things should
proceed.
Q801 Chairman: Would you have had
any discomfort in following that guidance?
Ms Pay: No, none whatsoever.
Q802 Chairman: Notwithstanding the
attitude of the Metropolitan Police?
Ms Pay: No, because I would have
immediately made sure that they knew that as well, which is what
I did when the Protocol was published. I made sure that they were
aware of it.
Q803 Ann Coffey: Lord Martin, when
he came to see us, said he felt he had been let down in his expectations
of the senior, professional staff of the House. Why do you think
he felt that?
Ms Pay: I think he felt that there
should have been more people aware of what was happening and they
should have talked to him about it.
Q804 Ann Coffey: Do you think it
was because he felt, even though he was Speaker of the House—it
certainly came over in his evidence—that he had had information
kept from him? Is that why you think he felt like that?
Ms Pay: I do not know why he thought
he felt like that, but no information was kept from him—
apart from the conversation that we did not have, about a warrant.
None of the information about the events was kept from him. There
was so little information. He had all that information. I think
it was more on the fact of advice that he made that statement.
Q805 Ann Coffey: You think he is
wrong to feel that?
Ms Pay: No, I did not say I thought
he was wrong to feel it. I do not think he could have felt it
about the information. I think it was more about advice. I cannot
say what is in his mind but I think it was on the fact of advice.
That is how I took that statement.
Q806 Chairman: Rather echoing what
Sir William McKay said, would you agree that what should have
happened here was that there should have been a meeting between
yourself, the Speaker, Speaker's Counsel and the Clerk? All four
of you should have been engaged.
Ms Pay: Yes.
Q807 Chairman: Because all four had
an interest as part of their individual and particular responsibilities.
Ms Pay: Yes. As I said at the
very beginning, with hindsight, I should have shared this with
the Clerk of the House on the evening of 26 November. I am sure
that is then what would have happened.
Q808 Chairman: Did you ever discuss
with Chief Superintendent Bateman the extent to which you felt
inhibited by this stipulation of confidentiality?
Ms Pay: No, I have not discussed
that with him.
Q809 Chairman: I mean at the time.
I implied grudgingly from what you said, "All right. The
Speaker then".
Ms Pay: I see what you mean. Yes,
at the time. I made it absolutely clear that I was going to tell
the Speaker and I was going to keep him informed. I did discuss
that with him at the time. I thought you meant after the events.
Q810 Chairman: You did not at that
time say, "There may be others" like for example Speaker's
Counsel whose job after all is to give the Speaker advice about
any legal issues which arise?
Ms Pay: No, I did not mention
others. I was just so intent on making sure the Speaker was informed
about what was happening.
Q811 Mr Howard: What Dr Jack told
us about what he told you was this: he said, "If what was
being asked about involved the search of a Member's office, the
Speaker would need to be consulted because that would go back
to his authority." That seems to be rather different from
your recollection of what he told you.
Ms Pay: I do not recollect the
phrase "that would go back to his authority."
Q812 Mr Howard: If that had been
said, you would realise that you would have to have the Speaker's
authority.
Ms Pay: Yes. If the Speaker's
authority had been mentioned, that would have triggered the Speaker's
authority.
Q813 Chairman: Were you surprised
then to be told that you had the authority to agree to the search
of a Member's office?
Ms Pay: No, I was not surprised
because of the delegated executive authority from the Speaker,
but I just wanted to check it out with an expert because this
was the first time this had ever come up in my experience. I wanted
to check it out with an expert, someone who had greater knowledge
than I of these matters.
Q814 Chairman: Did you understand
the seriousness of the threat to search?
Ms Pay: That is why I needed to
check. Yes indeed.
Chairman: Thank you very much. The Committee
is most grateful to you for your evidence.
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